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Old 02-23-2013, 05:48 AM   #16
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Thank you House for repeating what I just said. . The point is that in a heavily planted low stocked tank, huge water changes and the use of carbon is not necessary. If the water is fine prior to a water change, then why waste time and energy and water? Making fine water more "fine"? Uhh....

What may blow your mind is that I don't even measure my parameters either! Haven't for years! gasp!!! No need to when you know what you're doing and what to look for. You don't have to "go by the book" if you can think and use your common sense.

But, what do I know, right?

Bottom line is that there is more than one way to arrive at the same end point.
Not so fast crazydaz , although I think we are in the same boat, I'm preventing it taking on water, while your pumping it out after it's already started. My way is preventive your way is reactive since your don't really know where that "fine' line is or when it will be breached.
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Old 02-23-2013, 06:33 AM   #17
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Not really, but I can see your point....I still keep an eye on how specific plants are growing and make adjustments as necessary. Algae phases can be helpful and useful in determining courses of action as well. Water changes in greater amounts are necessary for the first few weeks, but if you know what to look for and have the experience, you don't have to do the big water changes. It's not for the beginning hobbyist, BUT I wouldn't call it completely reactionary. And all tanks go through reactionary phases....the "it was fine yesterday, what happened?" phase, and so forth. Knowing your parameters can help with prediction, but they aren't fail-safes either, so I'm not entirely sure that I would call massive water changes "preventative" either. I have no issues after my tanks mature.....there's not much in the way of reactionary measures if there are no issues to begin with, right? the ultimate "prevention," in my opinion, is to have a healthy system that is not reliant upon large water changes. If you do a massive trim, then you could rationalize that you should run your dosing on the lean side or you could get algae. No need to reset the water column or break out the testing kits; just use some common sense. You can do those things, if you like....I have done well without them. But you are right, House: you do need something to gauge where the set up is at. I can use plant growing habits and such to determine where I'm at ; you prefer a different set of means. So, we are in the same boat.

Again, two ways arriving at the same result. In fact, there are countless ways in this hobby to arrive at the same end result.
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Old 02-23-2013, 06:59 AM   #18
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...In fact, there are countless ways in this hobby to arrive at the same end result.
Indeed there are.
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Old 02-23-2013, 02:28 PM   #19
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Not really, but I can see your point....I still keep an eye on how specific plants are growing and make adjustments as necessary. Algae phases can be helpful and useful in determining courses of action as well. Water changes in greater amounts are necessary for the first few weeks, but if you know what to look for and have the experience, you don't have to do the big water changes. It's not for the beginning hobbyist, BUT I wouldn't call it completely reactionary. And all tanks go through reactionary phases....the "it was fine yesterday, what happened?" phase, and so forth. Knowing your parameters can help with prediction, but they aren't fail-safes either, so I'm not entirely sure that I would call massive water changes "preventative" either. I have no issues after my tanks mature.....there's not much in the way of reactionary measures if there are no issues to begin with, right? the ultimate "prevention," in my opinion, is to have a healthy system that is not reliant upon large water changes. If you do a massive trim, then you could rationalize that you should run your dosing on the lean side or you could get algae. No need to reset the water column or break out the testing kits; just use some common sense. You can do those things, if you like....I have done well without them. But you are right, House: you do need something to gauge where the set up is at. I can use plant growing habits and such to determine where I'm at ; you prefer a different set of means. So, we are in the same boat.

Again, two ways arriving at the same result. In fact, there are countless ways in this hobby to arrive at the same end result.

Growth rates largely determine this, without proper growth rates and oxygenation (which can be related to growth) not everyting will be broken down.. so at this point water changes are good

for most hobbyists, water changes are good. it takes a lot to be where you are
im still a water change fanatic, but im at the point where growth is the cleansing factor of my tank, and water changes are more for water clarity than anything. i like that clear water look a lot, but i negate myself, i like teawater too for my shrimps???

good experiment for you:
drain 3/4 of tank water once weekly and plot growth rates for a month, save that water and pump it back in
ow drain 3/4 of the tank water weekly and exchange with new
plot growth rates for a month and see if there is a variance, Tom has a theory that plants when exposed to fresh air act like a sponge and absorb as much co2 as they can hold. the theory has merrit especially when you notice how different plants grow on water change day, the next question is, does fresh water play a roll in that as well?
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:54 PM   #20
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Growth rates largely determine this, without proper growth rates and oxygenation (which can be related to growth) not everyting will be broken down.. so at this point water changes are good for most hobbyists, water changes are good.


That is really it. There is no universality in a tank that doesn't get regular water changes since it's reliant on a 'limited' setup. So you will always see people coming on here and saying I have a setup that doesn't get regular water changes and it does great. When I say limited it is either reliant on plant mass, plant grow, low light, etc. In crazydaz case it's more a fact that the tank 'balanced' after a certain amount of mass was created. But not all tanks achieve that amount of mass and/or growth. Take a high light iwagumi type setup. You will probably never have the mass to achieve 'clean water' without doing regular water changes. Some of these tanks that don't do water changes are lower light and relying on fish waste and food for ferts, again if one isn't putting NPK back in then they could suffer as well. Honestly it has a lot do with one's style as well. I don't set up a tank and say "I need more plants and/or growth with this setup otherwise I'll get algae" I set it up the way I want it to look and if it take's regular water changes, carbon, UV whatever I do that to maintain the look I want. IMO anyway the water change does have a universality to it since I haven't seen too many setups that don't benefit from it, but I have seen a lot of setups that suffer from a lack of it.

Think of a new setup, most folks go thru various phases of algae, why? In most cases it's simply the uptake isn't there so the tank get's algae from excess organics breaking down. That's why so many use carbon, massive water changes to bridge that gap until the plant mass/bio-filter is large enough. The water change allows a lot more wiggle room for most setups in terms of plant mass, growth, light, etc.
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