Theoretical Question about strains
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:06 PM   #1
Soothing Shrimp
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Theoretical Question about strains


Here's a 2 part theoretical question that anyone from newbies to experienced are free to weigh in on.

If a color of shrimp is already developed, is it a waste of time, resources and money to develop another strain of the exact same shrimp the same color?

Ie. A "blue velvet" colored mutation pops out of a cherry shrimp.

a) Should the strain be developed? (It may or may not have the same genetics.)

b) Since it looks the same as "blue velvet" should it be called another name if it is developed?

Opinions (but not flames) are welcome.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:08 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soothing Shrimp View Post
Here's a 2 part theoretical question that anyone from newbies to experienced are free to weigh in on.

If a color of shrimp is already developed, is it a waste of time, resources and money to develop another strain of the exact same shrimp the same color?

Ie. A "blue velvet" colored mutation pops out of a cherry shrimp.

a) Should the strain be developed? (It may or may not have the same genetics.)

b) Since it looks the same as "blue velvet" should it be called another name if it is developed?

Opinions (but not flames) are welcome.
I'd say go for it, too many strains are inbred and lose their strength, new strains increase genetic diversity which is good, I say go for it
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:31 PM   #3
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If one does it, should the strain be called a different name so as not to be confused with the "other" color?

-or- would it be better to take that mutation and directly breed it with the "other" color if the only reason is to create genetic diversity?
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:32 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Soothing Shrimp View Post

a) Should the strain be developed? (It may or may not have the same genetics.)

b) Since it looks the same as "blue velvet" should it be called another name if it is developed?

Opinions (but not flames) are welcome.
a) yes! absolutly you should. unless we can verify the genetics it should be treated as a new strain. down the road it could develop stripping or patterns not yet seen in the shrimp world.

and of course for personal pride, ya know? theres nothing color than looking a pretty shrimp and knowing that you bred that.

b) yes i think it should be called a blue velvet until it no longer looks like a blue velvet. i think if you really feel like it is special then call it a Blue Velvet sp. i rock or whatever you want so that it can be known that it is a "special" strain.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:01 AM   #5
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Wouldn't the best way to verify genetics be to cross with an already known strain?
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:07 AM   #6
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a) yes work on it cause no telling what it well end up like and if for nothing else but to add more genetic deversity.
b) if it were me i would call it something different. in the case of blue velvets... they tend to have some red on the head when born but it fades away, my blue rili i get from time to time from my reds will either keep the light red patch on the head as they grow older or some are never born with it at all and look just like the blue velvets from birth. so i would call it something else untill it was proven to have the same characteristics as one that is already out there


did that make any sence.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:25 AM   #7
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a) Yes. You may have come across a more stable mutation or one that can be combined with other color morphs leading to an even more diverse selection of shrimps.

b) Depends on if you can verify that it is in fact a distinct mutation. If its the same as the Blue Velvet, then no, since you've just come across it by chance. But if you can verify that it is novel then yes, go ahead.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:07 AM   #8
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Breed it out 2 generations if it holds true cross breed it back to original strain for diversity...sounds good to me tho I'm the newbie shrimp keeper you were referring to
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soothing Shrimp View Post
Here's a 2 part theoretical question that anyone from newbies to experienced are free to weigh in on.

If a color of shrimp is already developed, is it a waste of time, resources and money to develop another strain of the exact same shrimp the same color?

Ie. A "blue velvet" colored mutation pops out of a cherry shrimp.

a) Should the strain be developed? (It may or may not have the same genetics.)

b) Since it looks the same as "blue velvet" should it be called another name if it is developed?

Opinions (but not flames) are welcome.
Up to the individual to define what constitutes a waste of their time, money and/or energy.

I really don't see any difference between working towards developing a previously established strain out of one's own line and improving the line along the path it's already on.

Would you say someone seeking to improve their cherry population to a higher standard is wasting time/money/energy when they could just replace their shrimp with new ones readily available on the market? Unless their goal is to obtain a salable population as quickly as possible, probably not. The process offers hands-on lessons in culling and selective breeding, the thrill of taking on a challenge and--hopefully--the eventual satisfaction of reaching a personal goal. How is this really any different than someone developing a different strain from the same population?

As for naming, there's no real consistency or trustworthiness in "names" in the shrimp world anyway and the best breeders already tell what we need to know: where they got their originating stock from and how they've developed it.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:48 AM   #10
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Merth, I'm glad you are also giving your opinion. I really want from all sides.

You see, I really have a fascination for mutations and vars. As such, I have lots of side project shrimp. However the one question that has hounded me is the question is it really worth putting all the effort, frustration, money and resources into a same "color" of shrimp already developed?

"Would you say someone seeking to improve their cherry population to a higher standard is wasting time/money/energy when they could just replace their shrimp with new ones readily available on the market?"

I think there is a distinction to be made with developing a strain and culling to improve an already existing strain. In the example given, cherries already are a strain. Culling is just done to improve them.

In developing a strain, one is attempting to make a mutation breed true to begin with. If I personally were trying to reinvent the wheel, then it may not be the best project for me at this given time, however I have an open enough mind to re-evaluate my ideas with what is discussed here.

I'm thinking maybe the key to all of this is what some posts have implied. If I have a color that I think may be the genetically the same as an existing color, perhaps I should: existing color x new mutation

If the offspring don't come out the color as the parents, perhaps a new genetic loci for that color has been found.

If it does come out the same, then perhaps I should breed them into the original strain for better diversity?

See how one question leads to another which leads to another?
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Last edited by Soothing Shrimp; 02-12-2013 at 02:03 AM.. Reason: additional info
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:22 AM   #11
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Well we all do what we do for different reasons, lol very astute of me huh?

Lets look at it from another perspective I personally dont cull my cherries for a couple reasons. I know I can just buy PFR's for a buck or less apiece. Therefore it isnt worth my time to cull to develop an existing "cheap" line. I have no intention of breeding to sell, so once again not worth my time. I enjoy sitting watching them not messing with them so once again not worth my time. Someone else maybe has no money or I should no money to burn on more shrimp and wants a higher quality to sell therefore it would be worth their time to cull and develop in order to sell.

On the other hand I don't have alot of money to spend on my "hobby" so when I move into harder more expensive shrimp, then it would be worth the effort to "develop" a line worth selling/trading in order to continue getting more varieties.

What is worth your time? Thats the real question and what is your goal? Would you be doing it to possibly make money off it? Would it be a study in genetics? Would it be to develop a hardier , more colorful, healthier pet? Or simply is the fascination and excitement of doing it worth your time?

From what I have seen in this hobby no one is going to "pay" you for the blood, sweat and tears you put into your livestock, however maybe they will pay you for your livestock if it is cool, colorful, rare, exceptional whatever they are looking for at the moment. So I say do whatever feels good to you, thats the only real satisfaction to be had.

Oh and throw me some beads Mister! (lol couldnt resist Mardi gras and all)
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:00 AM   #12
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Im doing the exact same thing with my Bengal Tiger shrimps...yes I named them that because that's what they look like to me.

I have kept them all in the one tank so I can watch as females get berried I pull them out into the breeder box and can see what the new generation looks like.

If you think you have something that's worthwhile developing. go for it.

Nothing is a waste of time if you enjoy what you are doing. As we all have learned hybrids can produce anything so it may take a while before you have developed something that will breed true in each generation.

Many of the German Breeders of note are doing just that...so if you like
diversity and uniqueness, then continue what you are doing and document each generation so you know how you got to that point etc.

Name it whatever you want....its a free world!
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soothing Shrimp View Post
Wouldn't the best way to verify genetics be to cross with an already known strain?
idk you probably know that better than me lol.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:06 PM   #14
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I think the answer for me is what I wrote in post #10

Breeding a same genetic color isn't worth my time when I could just buy the strain and save dollars, and use my tanks for something else.

However if I have a different genetic color then it may be worth pursuing.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:09 PM   #15
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I'm going to start a thread journal on breeding existing color x new mutation. May as well have everyone follow along on what I'm doing.
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