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Old 02-09-2013, 12:39 AM   #1
Phusis_Eidos
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EI Guru's Needed


I have an ADA 60P (17Gallons) and I am somewhat new to EI (Researching all day). I'm trying to get a dry fertilizer list going but I have a few questions.

1. I know I need Macros (NPK) and Micros (Plantex CSM+B), so I have GLA's green fertilizers package which includes
  • Micros -
    • Plantex CSM + B - 1 / 2 Pound
  • Macros -
    • Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) - 1 Pound
    • Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4) - 1 / 2 Pound
    • Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4) - 1 Pound
So my question is if this is a "standard" way to get NPK and MICROS why why would I choose one over the other? Example1: Instead of K2SO4 some may just use KNO3,KH2PO4, or a mix of the three? Example2: Instead of Plantex CSM+B use PMDD, or Millers Microplex? What are the advantages and or disadvantages? GLA warns that PMDD is for the "experienced" why?


2. I ordered 8oz (250ml aprox) bottles and pumps that do 2ml per pump. I know there a suggestions of what ppm each fertilizer should reach, but is that for the week or per dose? Also could I dose 2x a week vs 3x via higher concentration?





3. Would I have to buy MGNO32 or MGSO4 or are these supplied by the Plantex?


Thank you for the help!
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Old 02-09-2013, 12:58 AM   #2
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Read this.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...ss-techy-folks

MGSO4 = Epsom Salts. Go to CVS and buy some. It probably costs $2.
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Old 02-09-2013, 02:32 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by puopg View Post
Read this.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...ss-techy-folks

MGSO4 = Epsom Salts. Go to CVS and buy some. It probably costs $2.
Thank you ! Does anyone make their solutions stronger and only does 2x a week, or is 3x better (Maybe for a more spread out/even distribution)
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Old 02-09-2013, 02:46 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phusis_Eidos View Post
So my question is if this is a "standard" way to get NPK and MICROS why why would I choose one over the other? Example1: Instead of K2SO4 some may just use KNO3,KH2PO4, or a mix of the three?
Some people do not add potassium sulfate because they do not need the extra potassium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phusis_Eidos View Post
Example2: Instead of Plantex CSM+B use PMDD, or Millers Microplex? What are the advantages and or disadvantages? GLA warns that PMDD is for the "experienced" why?
PMDD, based on the old Sears and Conlin paper does not contain phosphates, so would be unsuitable for current use. In addition, PMDD mixes macronutrients and micronutrients together. It is different than Plantex CSM+B and Millers Microplex, which are micronutrients only.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phusis_Eidos View Post
2. I ordered 8oz (250ml aprox) bottles and pumps that do 2ml per pump. I know there a suggestions of what ppm each fertilizer should reach, but is that for the week or per dose? Also could I dose 2x a week vs 3x via higher concentration?
The ideal concentration for each fertilizer is a general number. You should aim to have that concentration. Using Estimative Index (EI) dosing as an example, the dosing regimen slowly works up to an ideal concentration of each fertilizer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phusis_Eidos View Post
3. Would I have to buy MGNO32 or MGSO4 or are these supplied by the Plantex?
Plantex CSM+B is a micronutrient mix only, and will not provide magnesium (Mg), nitrates nor sulfates.
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Old 02-09-2013, 04:16 AM   #5
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I typically would use GH booster in place of K2SO4.
Since GH booster is 50% by volume K2SO4 anyhow.

I might add say 1/2 teaspoon of GH after a weekly water change
I might dose 1/4 teaspoon 2-3x a week of KNO3
Maybe 1/16th of the KH2PO4.(divide an 1/8th or a 1/4 into 2 or 4 equal parts by eye, it's not hard).

I make a stock solution of traces, mostly by habit, always have.
Some folks dose it dry on larger tanks.
I make a mix:

4 parts CMS(teaspoons)
1 Part DTPA
1 Part Fe Gluconate
maybe 20mls of Excel
Hot water 480mls
Shake well, wait an hour, then start dosing.
5 mls 3-4x a week

This is about all you might even could potentially use at the highest possible light PAR.

If the ADA aqua soil or MTS is new, then you can dose less if you wish, but it'll decline over time(you have about 1 year or thereabouts) in Nitrogen only, the other stuff is there for perhaps a decade.

And since EI is the upper bounds, you can modify, as I suggested going back to 1997-1998, but simply progressively adding less and less till you hit a negative plant response.

since the proportion from the sediment will change over time, the dosing will also change to the water column over time.Some enjoy fiddling with it, I do not.

I like large frequent water changes, so does Amano, I think most good scapers in the world do also, and we likely all have good reasons, different perhaps, but the tank looks better after a large water change. You can still grow nice plants with fewer water changes, but it makes life simpler for most tanks and certainly new tanks and any new ADA tank is best done very frequently, eg, ADA does 2-3x a week 50-80% water changes for the 1st1-2 months.

You can keep doing that and keep up on things really well, but you can likely back off and see. I have some tanks that get no water changes for months, others, 1x a month, and some that get 1-2x a week.

Some people loath water changes, so you can modify for your bad habits
I garden more= I do more water changes. That's a general rule. Just keeps things cleaner. Less gardening= I'll use less light= less growth= less work.
So obviously I can use less EI dosing.

EI was just a response to simplifying dosing for folks, it is not meant to be complicated. Hence the removal of test kits. Teaspoon usage. etc.















Quote:
Originally Posted by Phusis_Eidos View Post
I have an ADA 60P (17Gallons) and I am somewhat new to EI (Researching all day). I'm trying to get a dry fertilizer list going but I have a few questions.

1. I know I need Macros (NPK) and Micros (Plantex CSM+B), so I have GLA's green fertilizers package which includes
  • Micros -
    • Plantex CSM + B - 1 / 2 Pound
  • Macros -
    • Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) - 1 Pound
    • Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4) - 1 / 2 Pound
    • Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4) - 1 Pound
So my question is if this is a "standard" way to get NPK and MICROS why why would I choose one over the other? Example1: Instead of K2SO4 some may just use KNO3,KH2PO4, or a mix of the three? Example2: Instead of Plantex CSM+B use PMDD, or Millers Microplex? What are the advantages and or disadvantages? GLA warns that PMDD is for the "experienced" why?


2. I ordered 8oz (250ml aprox) bottles and pumps that do 2ml per pump. I know there a suggestions of what ppm each fertilizer should reach, but is that for the week or per dose? Also could I dose 2x a week vs 3x via higher concentration?





3. Would I have to buy MGNO32 or MGSO4 or are these supplied by the Plantex?


Thank you for the help!
__________________
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Tom Barr
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Old 02-09-2013, 04:51 AM   #6
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[QUOTE=plantbrain;2486666]

"I typically would use GH booster in place of K2SO4.
Since GH booster is 50% by volume K2SO4 anyhow."


If I am using tap water would I need to us a GH booster? Ex: http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquari...h-booster.html

What is the primary purpose of boosting GH? I know GH is a measure of the amount of Magnesium (Mg+) and Calcium (Ca+) ions in water. Do aquatic plats prefer harder water?


How do you dose FE ? GLA offers Iron Chelate : http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquari...n-chelate.html

Am I right to say this mixture uses the DPTA acid like EDTA to bond Iron molecules in the substrate/water column to organic molecules making them soluble? Or does this mixture have FE in it as well?

I'm running a Finnex Ray2 Over an ADA 60 P (17G) with ADA substrate and pressurized Co2. I always do min %50 water changes for the reasons you mentioned. I am planning on making macro and micro solutions, for the micro solution my guess is you added excel to prevent mold? I have always found your posts on the forum very helpful! Thank you for your help and to the others as well!
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:28 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phusis_Eidos View Post
If I am using tap water would I need to us a GH booster?
What is the primary purpose of boosting GH? I know GH is a measure of the amount of Magnesium (Mg+) and Calcium (Ca+) ions in water. Do aquatic plats prefer harder water?
It depends on your water chemistry. I have fairly hard water, so I never noticed a need for GH booster. Without a source of calcium and magnesium, plants will begin to develop deficiencies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phusis_Eidos View Post
How do you dose FE ? GLA offers Iron Chelate
There are various methods, but as plantbrain mentioned, he prefers a mixture of iron gluconate, DPTA iron and Plantex CSM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phusis_Eidos View Post
Am I right to say this mixture uses the DPTA acid like EDTA to bond Iron molecules in the substrate/water column to organic molecules making them soluble? Or does this mixture have FE in it as well?
DPTA complexes iron molecules, making them more bioavailable to plants. The product that you linked previously contains iron, chelated by DPTA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phusis_Eidos View Post
for the micro solution my guess is you added excel to prevent mold?
Yes; you can also use other preservation agents such as hydrochloric acid or citric acid.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:09 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkblade48 View Post
It depends on your water chemistry. I have fairly hard water, so I never noticed a need for GH booster. Without a source of calcium and magnesium, plants will begin to develop deficiencies.
I took samples from my water supply using API tests and found the following:
KH= 3ppm
PH= 6.8-7.0
Phosphates= .25ppm

I don't have a GH test, but I will be picking one up just to see. I also looked at my water report and found the following:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0u86xeuhph...y%20Report.jpg

I don't get how the CACO2 can be 74-118ppm? I am assuming this is the water hardness? Thanks for the help!



There are various methods, but as plantbrain mentioned, he prefers a mixture of iron gluconate, DPTA iron and Plantex CSM.


DPTA complexes iron molecules, making them more bioavailable to plants. The product that you linked previously contains iron, chelated by DPTA.


Yes; you can also use other preservation agents such as hydrochloric acid or citric acid.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:03 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phusis_Eidos View Post
I don't get how the CACO2 can be 74-118ppm? I am assuming this is the water hardness? Thanks for the help!
Depends on when they took the sample and from source location.
Late summer, typically is higher,early spring, typically lower.

KH is 3 and the GH 5-7 degrees.

Ideal water.
You can use some extra K2SO4 after the water change, I'd add maybe a teaspoon of epsom salt into the trace micro mix I listed prior.

GH is both the Mg and Ca, but tends to be Ca++, sometimes is low on Mg and since few measure Ca and Mg individually, adding some MgSO4 from epsom salt is wise and will only help.

So just add some epsom salt the traces, and K2SO4 after a water change(say 1 teaspoon per 50-60 gal of tank).

Tap seems great.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:20 PM   #10
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Default My Plan

Ok this is my plan to dose the 60P. Any comments/suggestions are welcome

I have 2 8oz (250ml) bottles that dose 2ml per pump; Trace, Macro.

According to Tom Barr http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...ss-techy-folks

These are the approximate levels that should be maintained:

CO2 range 25-35 ppm
NO3 range 10-30 ppm
K+ range 10-30 ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
GH range 1-2 degrees "extra" 17-40 ppm or higher

In order to achieve these levels I plan on dosing my tank 3x per week and have each bottle last 3 months (M-W-F) with the following:

(meashttp://www.plantedtank.net/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=2494666uring with digital scale)


CO2 via Pressurized system & Inline GLA Atomic Diffuser

Macro Bottle

KNO3 - 1/8 tsp (.625g) 3x per week = .625*3= (1.875g*12)=22.5g in 250ml bottle.

KH2PO4 - 1/32 (.156g) 3x per week = .156*3= (.468g*12)=5.625g in 250ml bottle.

K2SO4 - 1/8 tsp (.625g) 3x per week = .625*3= (1.875g*12)=22.5g in 250 ml bottle.

Total 50.6 g

Trace Bottle

MGSO4 "epsom salt" - 1/8 tsp (.625g) 3x per week = .625*3= (1.875*12)=22.5g in 250 ml bottle

CSM+B - 1/32 tsp (.156g) 3x per week = .156*3= (.468g*12)=5.625g in 250ml bottle.

Total 28.1 g

This should provide my Macros and Trace correct? I just want to make sure this sounds correct in terms of amounts and what I am dosing. I have leftover Flourish Fe and will dose 3ml 3x per day (.5ppm target) to augment the Fe in CSM+B. As far as GH my water should be ok, however I am dosing K2SO4 and MGSO4 which to my understanding will help boost my GH as plantbrain suggested?

Thanks for all your help!









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