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Old 01-11-2013, 01:59 AM   #1
Beer
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Shrimp genetics


I went to a local club meeting earlier this week. They had a talk on guppies that was pretty interesting.
There was a lot of research done on guppy genetics. They have this stuff down so well now that guppy breeders sit down with pen and paper and design their final product before they get to work. They know which traits are x-linked, which are y-linked, and what ones are weakly linked and use that to their advantage to force the desired mutations.

I've started looking for some data on this type of research for shrimp. If the genetics were mapped out well like the guppy, it would be easier to get specific results with out waiting for random mutations, or selectively breeding and inbreeding over many generations once you start seeing a trait that you like.
You come up with a concept, select the appropriate breeding stock and get to work. Having this ability would make it easier to get specific patterns without excessive inbreeding, which would allow for shrimp that are more active and less delicate. It also wouldn't take so long to develop lines that breed true.

Does anybody know of sources of information for ornamental shrimp genetics?
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Old 01-11-2013, 02:17 AM   #2
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to the best of my knowledge there is nothing like that. and im betting there wont be for quite some time. shrimp are high dollar animals and the breeders want to keep their work secret so they can make money.
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:22 AM   #3
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from what i know guppies are very simple. but there are multiple types of shrimp it might be easier for neos but for cardinia it might be a little more complicated
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:52 AM   #4
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Coloration and patterning in shrimp is different than in guppies, where most shrimp attributes are recessive and even then, the recessive traits that are expressed when cross breeding is random.

Would be cool to work something out like that, but with so many morphs and so many specie , it would be nearly impossible.
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:10 PM   #5
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Beer, I've been frustrated by this, too. Hopefully more work will be done along these lines.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:41 PM   #6
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Rafel in Poland is one person who I know is doing some work, mostly trial and error, work but has made some interesting theories about colors, etc.

This is his site. http://www.kumakshrimp.com/en/articles.html

Which sort of goes along the lines of what was shown in this thread, http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=209602

The cherry shrimp in the above thread, has small yellow pigment marks. By being able to look close at shrimp and find the ones with the biggest yellow marks and least red and breeding it with another, you would a more yellow shrimp (the yellow shrimp did come from cherries, so it makes sense). It happened randomly in populations of cherries, but with close up work of examining the 2 shrimp you would want to breed and getting an idea of the dominant and sub-dominant colors, you could eventually work out what the offspring might be like.

That's about the closest I've seen any documented work on shrimp anyways. I'm sure their are breeders out there with secrets that aren't sharing, but honestly, most of the variations we have now are just random shrimp that have popped up and then been line bred, back crossed, etc, to get what we have. There are lots of "1-off" shrimp that you see photos off, that look awesome but probably don't breed true and wouldn't without lots of work.

I think Rafel is probably onto something though with his color ideas and the pigments the shrimp can show close up. I've spoken with him lots of facebook about it, and although there is a language barrier, he seems to really know what he's talking about, most of it over my head, but I get the idea and photos like Auban's seem to confirm things like that. There is a dominant pigment, which we see, but also a smaller pigment that is there but not visible to the eye, but through selection, possible to breed in greater numbers and color intensity.

It's a theory anyways, but about the only we have out there right now. lol.
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:02 PM   #7
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Awesome info. Thanks.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:30 PM   #8
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The way some breeders are putting out so many variants, I figured there had to be some research done; maybe at universities in Japan where the shrimp are far more popular. If it is partially hit or miss and learned through years of experience and intense breeding, it would be closely guarded when these shrimp can draw serious money per specimen in the right markets.
The guppy genetic research was done in a lab. Before that it was along the lines of what the shrimp breeding is now. Not all luck and random morphs, but more trying to set up the right conditions to get the desired traits. A lot of work and patience, but still a little bit of luck.

I think I'll end up spending a lot of time on Rafel's site. That looks like a good resource, thanks!
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:11 AM   #9
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if we want to understand more about shrimp genetics, we need to look at them close enough to see what is producing the color we see. then we might be able to build a catalogue of each mutation and understand how it is presented.

if we could do that, we could design our shrimp with pen and pencil. since we have an incredible number of varieties to look at, it probably wouldn't take very long to produce such a catalogue.
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:23 AM   #10
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That would work if a red shrimp plus a yellow shrimp equaled an orange shrimp, but it doesn't work like that. It makes a brown shrimp, then if those brown shrimp mate with each other you get some red and some yellow.

The coloration on most are recessive, which is why it relies more on mutation or selective breeding than it does mixing 1 and 2 hoping to get 3.
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:44 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordalphus View Post
That would work if a red shrimp plus a yellow shrimp equaled an orange shrimp, but it doesn't work like that. It makes a brown shrimp, then if those brown shrimp mate with each other you get some red and some yellow.

The coloration on most are recessive, which is why it relies more on mutation or selective breeding than it does mixing 1 and 2 hoping to get 3.
that makes sense if there is more than one type of mutation for each color. ie, one prevents the pigment from being produced at all, while the other one works by preventing the chromatophore from being able to be formed.

breeding the two together would make offspring that have both genes restored(and possibly a third pigment) while still having the recessive genes to produce both original mutations. we wouldnt know unless we understood how each pigment is expressed in each mutation.

my red shrimp have yellow pigment. if they prevent brown by one type of mutation while the yellow shrimp lack brown due to a different type of mutation...

you end up with what you described.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:05 AM   #12
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Yes, it's more complicated than it seems. Coloration is one thing, patterning is another, I have experiments going now experimenting in the extremes of coloration, patterning and also some things that people have been saying is impossible.

Basically if you want to experiment, that is the best way to figure this stuff out. Not waiting for a laboratory to figure it out for you. In my opinion that is just being lazy.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:59 AM   #13
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Interesting thread! I was thinking about this myself, especially the whole tigers mixing with CRS and all. Somehow it seems like incomplete dominance there but with neos, it's complete dominance.

Wish I could find a prof at my college willing to undertake this but it would require many shrimp lives to be thrown away for science
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:17 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordalphus View Post
Yes, it's more complicated than it seems. Coloration is one thing, patterning is another, I have experiments going now experimenting in the extremes of coloration, patterning and also some things that people have been saying is impossible.

Basically if you want to experiment, that is the best way to figure this stuff out. Not waiting for a laboratory to figure it out for you. In my opinion that is just being lazy.
Coloration is probably many things. Even just talking about red. There is the degree of coverage and the intensity, then there are even the 'red' vs 'wine red'.
what about yellow? is it yellow vs red such one is dom and one rec or can they both express at the same time? and if they express at the same time then will one mask the other?

Too often we tie phenotype and genotype together.

I kept angels for a while and there is some really great info on angel genetics but most of the work has been done by crosses and line breeding which takes time but is still very accurate.

Then we all neeed to be aware that there are going to be exceptional shrimp that cannot be 'designed' or duplicated. it's just a unique combination that produced an amazing animal
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandamonium View Post
Interesting thread! I was thinking about this myself, especially the whole tigers mixing with CRS and all. Somehow it seems like incomplete dominance there but with neos, it's complete dominance.

Wish I could find a prof at my college willing to undertake this but it would require many shrimp lives to be thrown away for science

I think that determining genetics to make pretty little shrimp for our tanks is a pretty loose way to define science
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