The "One-Two Punch" Whole Tank Algae Treatment - Page 4
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:51 AM   #46
DarkCobra
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Ok, this isn't good. I haven't had a single death with many treatments performed, but others are reporting WAY too many. I feel terrible about every one.

So, I am immediately changing my recommendation for anyone who still wishes to try this to 2 tbsp. per 10G of H2O2. This will be added at the top of the original post in bold.

I would also like a shrimp expert to verify whether the one-time Excel dose of 5ml per 10G, being used here and recommended by Seachem as their "attack" dose, is considered shrimp safe. If I don't get a reply here in a few days, I'll ask again on the shrimp forum.

nvladik: 1,500GPH is plenty of flow.

vvDO: The active ingredient in Algaefix is known to enhance absorption of other chemicals, and I've found reference to it being used just for that purpose in several scientific papers. This is a whole different area of experimentation that no one, including myself, has tried in a controlled manner. I wouldn't recommend using AlgaeFix in combination with other treatments, unless you understand that it may pose an unusual risk.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:15 PM   #47
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Hi All,
I plan on trying this on a 55gal with what I think is hair algae. The tank contains neons, angle fish, guppies, and pond snails. I don't care if the snails make it or not. Are these fish sensitive to this treatment?
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:32 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkCobra View Post
vvDO: The active ingredient in Algaefix is known to enhance absorption of other chemicals, and I've found reference to it being used just for that purpose in several scientific papers. This is a whole different area of experimentation that no one, including myself, has tried in a controlled manner. I wouldn't recommend using AlgaeFix in combination with other treatments, unless you understand that it may pose an unusual risk.
I wouldn't recommend it to anyone as my tank has no inhabitants except plants and MTS/ramshorn snails.
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:09 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by reel1090 View Post
I plan on trying this on a 55gal with what I think is hair algae. The tank contains neons, angle fish, guppies, and pond snails. I don't care if the snails make it or not. Are these fish sensitive to this treatment?
I've done it many times with neon tetras, guppies, and pond snails. No problems with these - at least for me.

Karatekid14 reported the loss of ember tetras, though.

No one has tried it with angel fish.
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:29 PM   #50
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likely this is due to how much stuff the h2o2 has to react with in the tank
the more matter the h2o2 can react with, the less stressful for fish
an experimental dirty tank vs clean tank might help to set those differences aside
for instance algaefix is far more effective don right after a big water change as there is less organic matter for it to bond to before reaching out to algae


as far as shrimp
i've seen the roach of shrimp.. cherry shrimp die from excel (it takes more than a normal amount usually)
i would not reccommend dosing excel on a shrimp tank at all. esecially not higher line or more sensitive shrimp species
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:54 PM   #51
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HD_Blazingwolf: Agreed, and most of my tests have been in very clean tanks, with only small bits of algae. I went to 10ml/10G in an absolutely filthy tank once, without incident.

I hope no one would ever try any aggressive treatment on the really expensive and sensitive shrimp species. It would be nice if safe limits could be established for cherries and Amanos, though. I went ahead and posted an inquiry on the shrimp forum to that end.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:44 AM   #52
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Well, it does get back to dose makes the poison, too much, kills the fish etc, too little does not kill the algae.

IME over the years, slow lower dosing worked best for algicides.
It took me about 2-3 months to kill the BBA in one large tank, but no issues.

Algaefix, H2O2 and Excel all bind to organic matter rapidly. Less than 1 hour I'd say in most any aquarium. Large water changes also add a lot of O2 for the fish respiration. Always a wise thing before any treatment.

I dosed Algaefix to knock back GDA with a single treatment with a single treatment of Excel, it did not eradicate a full bloom(90%). That also included a 60% water change and I also doubled the light for that week to see if increasing that would change the results. So it might have less/little to do with the chemicals.

The increase in light actually helped.

I noticed this before several years ago when I lived in Isla Vista CA.
Once the plants really took off from the added light, the GDA died back a lot and then a week or two later, nothing. Seems there might be a critical growth RATE to balance particular planted tanks. So plant growth momentum seems to play a role, how exactly, I'm not sure. I did not use chemicals back then at all.

Dark Cobra, I would keep using Clean tanks. Otherwise you introduce other variables. I noticed a big difference with ADA As vs the clean bare bottom tanks with the Algaefix. Mostly with moss infested with hair algae.
Easy to get since I have the moss outside and it's always got some hair algae available in the bonsai trays.

I suppose you could toss a lot of driftwood or some flith into a tank and load up, or use clay loam, ADA AS etc in one tank to see.

Seems that the more organically loaded tanks would have a higher requirement vs the clean tank in virtually all cases, the lower O2, or perhaps the dose killed the biofilter perhaps some. Those, not the chemical killed the fish/shrimp.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:41 PM   #53
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When I treated my tank as per this thread I noticed a bit of ammonia the next day. I did another 50% water change and everything was fine.

This was on a very established tank (2+ years) that had 0 ammonia before the treatment. The tank also had substantial mulm buildup in the substrate (i.e. lots of organic matter for the peroxide and Excel to react with). I had not removed the media from the filter and left the filter running. I can only assume decaying organic matter, dead algae cells in combination with a weakened biofilter was the cause. I didn't lose any fish but there was at least 1 cherry shrimp death (probably more but I didn't see them and I assume they got eaten pretty fast by the snails, shrimp etc).

I think the lesson to take away from this is to monitor ammonia soon after the treatment and be prepared to deal with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
Seems that the more organically loaded tanks would have a higher requirement vs the clean tank in virtually all cases, the lower O2, or perhaps the dose killed the biofilter perhaps some. Those, not the chemical killed the fish/shrimp.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:12 PM   #54
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When I treated my tank as per this thread I noticed a bit of ammonia the next day. I did another 50% water change and everything was fine.

This was on a very established tank (2+ years) that had 0 ammonia before the treatment. The tank also had substantial mulm buildup in the substrate (i.e. lots of organic matter for the peroxide and Excel to react with). I had not removed the media from the filter and left the filter running. I can only assume decaying organic matter, dead algae cells in combination with a weakened biofilter was the cause. I didn't lose any fish but there was at least 1 cherry shrimp death (probably more but I didn't see them and I assume they got eaten pretty fast by the snails, shrimp etc).

I think the lesson to take away from this is to monitor ammonia soon after the treatment and be prepared to deal with it.
did you remove your Bio filter while doing the treatment? i would expect a weakening of the beneficial bacteria in the tank , i have used a similar method and received similar results as you even after removing the bio filter, there are lots of beneficial bacterial all over your plants and substrate as well, this system works for me
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:37 PM   #55
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Quote:
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Large water changes also add a lot of O2 for the fish respiration. Always a wise thing before any treatment.
Would you still recommend this before an H2O2 treatment, which releases O2? Or does the consumption of O2 by dying algae exceed the amount generated?

Quote:
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Dark Cobra, I would keep using Clean tanks. Otherwise you introduce other variables.
I consider my tanks clean, but of course that's subjective. So are a lot of other things. And I think I've underestimated the variables. Hopefully reducing the H2O2 to 2 tbsp/10G is enough.

Everything else, +1.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:43 PM   #56
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As of today, I've also added to my big bold red warning at the top, that I do not recommend this treatment with shrimp - unless they're considered expendable.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:47 PM   #57
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I did NOT remove the filter media from the filter prior to the treatment. In other words, everything got blasted. If I do this again I will probably remove the filter media. BUT, I detected the slight rise in ammonia w/in 24 hours of the treatment and did a 50% water change. Subsequent tests for ammonia (every 24 hours for the next 2 days) showed ammonia at ZERO.

I would think that in any case, frequent water changes after this treatment would be beneficial to get rid of dead algae cells and mitigate against any ammonia spike.

Also, Vals seem to be recovering. They were experiencing melting after the treatment so I pulled them out, stripped the dead leaves, trimmed the roots and replanted. I have spotted at least 1 plant throwing out a runner and most plants growing new leaves. I predict a full recovery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fplata View Post
did you remove your Bio filter while doing the treatment? i would expect a weakening of the beneficial bacteria in the tank , i have used a similar method and received similar results as you even after removing the bio filter, there are lots of beneficial bacterial all over your plants and substrate as well, this system works for me

Last edited by farrenator; 01-22-2013 at 05:01 PM.. Reason: more info
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:57 PM   #58
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This method killed the algae very well but also my fish. When they started acting weird I tested my water and they all came out 0. I did a 25% water change on top of the 50% and turned off the co2 and turned on the air pump. I think the best method would be to have even higher flow than you think is okay and remove the inhabitants if possible. Well actually the flow would only need to be enough to circulate the water if the fish are out, right?

I really don't know what went wrong, I had high flow and given the amount of cellulose/debris/algae, all the H2O2 should have converted to O2 quickly. I still think this is a viable method but it needs to be tested a bit more.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:11 PM   #59
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I notice you have a small tank - 12.5 gallons. Perhaps your fish death, as compared to my lack of (I have a 75 gallon tank) is related to how small your tank is. I would think that a 60% water change + a subsequent 25% change in a 12 gallon tank is a lot more destabilizing than a 50% water change, followed by another 50% water change 24 hours later in a 75 gallon tank. In other words, all else being equal, a 75 gallon tank is going to have more buffer/be more stable than a 12 gallon.

Two questions:
How long had the ottos and tetras been in the tank before treatment? In other words, were they well established? My fish had all been in the tank at least 1 year before treatment and are used to 50% weekly water changes.

How soon after the treatment did the fish die?

One other data point: After the H2O2 treatment I drained the water as quickly as possible, using a garden hose and a gravel vac at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karatekid14 View Post
This method killed the algae very well but also my fish. When they started acting weird I tested my water and they all came out 0. I did a 25% water change on top of the 50% and turned off the co2 and turned on the air pump. I think the best method would be to have even higher flow than you think is okay and remove the inhabitants if possible. Well actually the flow would only need to be enough to circulate the water if the fish are out, right?

I really don't know what went wrong, I had high flow and given the amount of cellulose/debris/algae, all the H2O2 should have converted to O2 quickly. I still think this is a viable method but it needs to be tested a bit more.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:22 PM   #60
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I understand that my tank would be more fragile than a 75 but I believe that something else happend. Okay exactly what I did
1. tank age: 15 months, I only had lost an oto
2. stopped filter
3. turned on pumps, 325 gph
4. dosed 70 mL H2O2
5. waited 15 min, re-adjusted pumps
6. 50% water change took 8 min
7. dosed 5 mL excel
8. 20 min later noticed otos acting odd, added air stone
9. 40 min later oto died
10. tested water, normal
11. over the next ~hour or less more died
12. 25% water change
13. tested water, normal
14. none died, which makes me think it was the H202

that's as best I can remember it, that was Saturday.
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