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Old 11-10-2012, 12:32 AM   #16
Gold Finger
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ps. Thanks for your help. I know I have already been told all the facts and that they are not really that complicated but I'm a fert noob in the worst sense. I complicate the stuff in my own head.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:43 AM   #17
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K2SO4! Thanks Kathyy. Goldfish produce ridiculous amounts of waste and are sensitive to nitrate so It is nice to know I can dose the K alone. Leaf Zone seems to be comprised of:

Solubule Potash (K2O) - 3.0%
Iron (Fe) - 0.1%
0.1% Chelated Iron (Fe)
Derived from: Potassium Sulfate and Iron EDTA."

Perhaps I can get by with this and CSM+B.
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Old 11-10-2012, 01:39 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold Finger View Post
K2SO4! Thanks Kathyy. Goldfish produce ridiculous amounts of waste and are sensitive to nitrate so It is nice to know I can dose the K alone. Leaf Zone seems to be comprised of:

Solubule Potash (K2O) - 3.0%
Iron (Fe) - 0.1%
0.1% Chelated Iron (Fe)
Derived from: Potassium Sulfate and Iron EDTA."

Perhaps I can get by with this and CSM+B.
why not just CSM+B and straight K2SO4?
Same thing all over again! Leaf Zone is paying for them to send you mostly water.
Recommended potassium levels are around 15ppm.
K2SO4 = 2.8 grams raises 20g by 14.26ppm

again dry ferts are the bomb not the wallet.
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Old 11-10-2012, 02:20 AM   #19
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Yes. Quite right. Thanks wkndracer. My NO3 is good at ~15ppm. My tap PO4 is 2ppm, of which I change at least 25% of my tank per week which should contribute half of what it needs ( I have just learned 1ppm is a good amount, right?) the fish/food should provide the rest. I will get some dry K2SO4 and some form of Iron. Without substrate my plants have only the .08 my tap is providing and I bet that is gone in a day. I have just read that .1-.5ppm is a good range for iron. Anyone know a good source? or is it in CSM+B? I resisted the urge to say seachem something .
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:19 PM   #20
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Plantex CSM+B or Millers Microplex both contain Fe (iron) and are only slightly different on ratios. It's opinion on which is better but they are very similar.
Iron can be over applied in the extreme without hazard that I'm aware of and I've done that for over a year. Using a general mirco mix you should have happy plants.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:55 PM   #21
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Will use the K2sO4. I checked and found out that CSM+B is 7% iron which is great, but it is not the best form of iron (EDTA). It precipitates and oxidates very easily in alkaline water like mine (7.8). I am considering the flourish iron to supplement it. It claims to be even better than DTPA. Any opinions on it?
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Old 11-10-2012, 01:07 PM   #22
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Gold Finger - Your Goldfish are, I would think creating all the Macros your plants will need and maybe more. Plants are limited to the amount of Macros they can use by the amount of trace elements presents. Hence dosing Traces will benefit.

Keep in mind they are called "TRACE" elements for a reason. More is not better.

Both dry and wet methods work and it is more a matter of economic value over effectiveness. Dry of course is cheaper per dose. However, if one has only one or two tanks, I question the logic of owning enough dry chemical to dose an Aquatic Greenhouse operation.
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Old 11-10-2012, 01:14 PM   #23
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As the conversation developed it reads as though K2SO4 and trace are the only concerns. 1/2 or 1lb orders on each would be a years supply for most and less cost than a single shipment of water bottles. Ratio mix trace using distilled not to introduce bacteria and dry dosed potassium is easy.
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Last edited by wkndracer; 11-10-2012 at 03:31 PM.. Reason: second cup of coffee
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Old 11-11-2012, 01:43 AM   #24
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Firstly, you make a good point about the fish probably providing all the macros my plants need, dogfish. Only someone who has kept goldfish can believe the waste they produce! My thinking was to start by providing the K+ and the traces both in order to see what non nutrient limited growth looked like then get rid of the K+ and see what happened. Now that you mention it though, I realize that I could start with just the traces first (which are more likely to be limiting) then try adding the K+ later. I would not get my answer any sooner either way. Secondly, dry vs. bottled ferts certainly is a question of economy but I don't see the sense in dosing K+ for the rest of my life never knowing if I ever really had to. I will start by picking up something in a bottle at the LFS for the sake of the experiment then order whichever dry ferts I indeed need after that. The cost of bottled traces the Seachem way (which involves one bottle for traces which last and another for traces which precipitate out quickly) is ridiculous. about $150/year vs. maybe $15 for dry!

Thank you all. This kind of help really is invaluable. I know what I am doing now.... except... I just read some stuff about EDTA iron not working so well in water as basic as mine (Ph7.8). Naturally there is a company which sells a very pretty, very expensive little bottle of "special" (ferrous gluconate) iron which claims to be much better in high pH water like mine. Any opinions on vs. plain ol' SCM+B type iron in very Basic water?
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Old 11-11-2012, 02:04 AM   #25
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I do believe in research but , I also feel people in this hobby can make themselves insane micro managing the Chemistry of it all.

I think you are right to slowly make adjustments to learn what works with your water, in your tank, with your plants, growing under your lights, with your fish swimming in water that you change on your schedule.

I feel the best tool is a camera. Take pics keep track of the progress you make. It get very obvious when you can look at pics taken say the 1st of each month.
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Old 11-11-2012, 03:38 AM   #26
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I think obsessing on the details is a side effect of my insanity, rather than the cause. And I am finding a lot of references to fish/food Producing enough N and P but not enough K. I have just remembered that Equilibrium, of which I happen to have a jar, is 30% K2SO4, so I will dose that for a week or so and if it helps I will order some dry K2S04. Then I will start with traces and iron. The vast majorty of web advice is that with a heavy fish load I will still need to dose K, Fe, and traces to support a heavy plant mass at the fastest rate it will grow under the high end of low light such as mine. Those and some excell since I am not attracted to the idea of adding a CO2 contraption as of yet.
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:04 AM   #27
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Seachem Eq is 50% K2SO4, so is GH booster, the generic version.

Gold fish are great and good nutrient producers, but.......they also like cool waters..........so this slows CO2 demand and plant growth a lot...........so the nutrient demands are reduced.

Most over fed their goldfish also.

A good method to deal with any excess is adding some floating species like water sprite. Cuts the light down below, but provides excellent export of nutrients.

You basically learn to use the weedy WS as your test kit. Works quite well over time. Most LFS and local aquarium clubs like it also, so you can sell the weed.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Seachem Eq is 50% K2SO4, so is GH booster, the generic version.

Gold fish are great and good nutrient producers, but.......they also like cool waters..........so this slows CO2 demand and plant growth a lot...........so the nutrient demands are reduced.

Most over fed their goldfish also.

A good method to deal with any excess is adding some floating species like water sprite. Cuts the light down below, but provides excellent export of nutrients.

You basically learn to use the weedy WS as your test kit. Works quite well over time. Most LFS and local aquarium clubs like it also, so you can sell the weed.
Thanks; The generic, yours for example, would work better for me since the Eq has too much iron to use often in low light.

I always forget to say "fancy" goldfish. Quite different is some ways from flat bodied type. I keep mine at tropical temps so that's not an issue. Many Chineese breeders reccomment ~78 degrees on average (72-86 being a safe range on average, believe it or not). More widely known knowledge over there where these fish are respected and valued.

NO3 never tops 10ppm, so export is not an issue thankfully as I am trying to minimize stems. Trying to get as nice a plant look as possible despite having these messy fish in there. It is not as difficult as many think. A bit rare for folks to try is all.

much respect,
A. Laisney
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:58 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold Finger View Post
Naturally there is a company which sells a very pretty, very expensive little bottle of "special" (ferrous gluconate) iron which claims to be much better in high pH water like mine.
What? Gluconate is even weaker than the common “EDTA” and is even
less suitable to high pH water.

Gluconate has some plus sides but definitely not for high pH/KH water.

Go with DTPA iron.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:25 PM   #30
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Yeah, thanks. I figured some of this out from old plantbrain posts. Will use DPTA and may use some gluconate too. Gone fast is OK for plants which suck it up fast, and good for fish which don't appreciate toxic levels accumulating. Got the theory but your practical experience is at least as helpful, maybe more so.
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