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Old 09-25-2012, 01:06 PM   #1
NcRoW14
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What would you do?


Okay, so I've doing some research and planning on a small planted tank with a betta and a small algae eater (if he becomes necessary). So the question is, What would you do with a 2.5gallon? Filter? Light? Plants? Substrate? anything else you think is necessary!!! Keep in mind I am a TOTAL noob to planted tanks. I've kept both FW and SW setups for 15+ years, but never a planted tank. (oh and i'd like to not have to use CO2 as i don't have anywhere to put a tank and keep the aesthetics. it's going to be on a small bookshelf in my living room with nowhere to hide anything). Ideally I'd like to have a little bit of color in there with the plants, some purples and reds but I don't know if this is possible someone inexperienced like me to be able to keep the types of plants that have the colors. I know i sound like an idiot here so excuse my ignorance. I am still researching and don't plan to set this up for a while until I have a good understanding of the types of plants I decide on and what they need to stay alive. I'll be using a 2.5gallon that is already set up and cycled with my betta right now. Will I have to start over with the cycle switching from hardscape to planted? Thanks for the input!!!!!!
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:21 PM   #2
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When setting up a new tank, I personally work from the inside outward.
Start with the flora and fauna you wish to keep, then substrate/scaping, then additional equipment to make it work (lights, filter, etc).
The times I just "throw together" a tank, I usually end up changing so much of it.
So guess my advice is, plan it all out before executing.
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:01 PM   #3
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First of all - you're not stupid or ignorant. Everybody starts somewhere and this hobby can get complicated

I would suggest, that since this is your first planted tank, that you go ahead and start from scratch (drain the tank, etc.). It's just easier to build everything up and understand what's happening.

As far as substrate, sand, etc. go I will suggest everything you need for a low-cost, low-tech, natural soil-based setup.

Soil: Miracle Gro Organic Potting Mix
To prepare for use: This stuff has lots of big sticks and wood chips in it, and it's best to sort those out of the dirt you want to use for your tank, so they won't rot and create an ammonia spike. You can either sift through it dry, or fill a container with the potting mix and some water and stir it up well so the wood floats. The mud will sink to the bottom of the container and you can grab handfuls to add to your tank.

Sand cap: This will go over the mud to prevent it from floating. There are TONS of options but my favorite is Quikrete Commercial Grade Fine Grain sand (the package is tan with bright blue behind the Quickrete logo). You can buy a 50 pound bag at Home Depot for $5. One of the best parts about this sand is the grains are so fine that it's easy to clean and won't kick up dust.

Adding the soil and sand:
If you don't want to have a layer of dirt showing, put down a small layer of damp sand around the edges of the bottom of the tank, kind of building it up at the sides and corners. Then go ahead and add enough handfuls of mud to create at least an inch of compacted dirt. Then pour dry sand over it evenly, so that no potting mix is poking out. You just need enough to prevent the potting mix from floating, so no more than a half inch is necessary.

Adding the first few inches of water: this step is very important - you need to put a plate down on the sand. It doesn't matter how big it is, but if you pour your water directly onto the plate, you will not disturb the soil and sand, making everything much easier on you.

Adding plants: This it the part where you would go ahead and plant your stem plants. Low-light thrivers include anacharis, anubias, java fern, wisteria, etc. etc. I'll let you read up on plants and make your own decisions. Colorful red and purple plants can work in a low light setup but they do tend to require better lighting than simple green plants. You can also include your hardscape decor and plants tied to it.

Add the rest of the water: same deal, use the plate method. Don't forget to condition your water to remove the chlorine!

Add your floating plants: Duckweed, frogbit, anacharis and horwort are all really easy to keep alive in a low-light setup, but again go ahead and pick out plants you like.


As for what kind of light you want to get, there are a lot of options at different prices. What are you looking to spend on lighting? That will help us steer you in the right direction. Since this is a 2.5 gallon I'd recommend a nice little LED.
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:23 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitFUUL View Post
When setting up a new tank, I personally work from the inside outward.
Start with the flora and fauna you wish to keep, then substrate/scaping, then additional equipment to make it work (lights, filter, etc).
The times I just "throw together" a tank, I usually end up changing so much of it.
So guess my advice is, plan it all out before executing.
Thanks bit. I've been working on this for a few months now trying to figure out a plan, but everytime i think i know what I want to do I change my mind. I guess I just have to pick something and stick to it and execute. Huh. That was easy to write, now if I can actually do it...
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babystarz View Post
First of all - you're not stupid or ignorant. Everybody starts somewhere and this hobby can get complicated

I would suggest, that since this is your first planted tank, that you go ahead and start from scratch (drain the tank, etc.). It's just easier to build everything up and understand what's happening.

As far as substrate, sand, etc. go I will suggest everything you need for a low-cost, low-tech, natural soil-based setup.

Soil: Miracle Gro Organic Potting Mix
To prepare for use: This stuff has lots of big sticks and wood chips in it, and it's best to sort those out of the dirt you want to use for your tank, so they won't rot and create an ammonia spike. You can either sift through it dry, or fill a container with the potting mix and some water and stir it up well so the wood floats. The mud will sink to the bottom of the container and you can grab handfuls to add to your tank.

Sand cap: This will go over the mud to prevent it from floating. There are TONS of options but my favorite is Quikrete Commercial Grade Fine Grain sand (the package is tan with bright blue behind the Quickrete logo). You can buy a 50 pound bag at Home Depot for $5. One of the best parts about this sand is the grains are so fine that it's easy to clean and won't kick up dust.

Adding the soil and sand:
If you don't want to have a layer of dirt showing, put down a small layer of damp sand around the edges of the bottom of the tank, kind of building it up at the sides and corners. Then go ahead and add enough handfuls of mud to create at least an inch of compacted dirt. Then pour dry sand over it evenly, so that no potting mix is poking out. You just need enough to prevent the potting mix from floating, so no more than a half inch is necessary.

Adding the first few inches of water: this step is very important - you need to put a plate down on the sand. It doesn't matter how big it is, but if you pour your water directly onto the plate, you will not disturb the soil and sand, making everything much easier on you.

Adding plants: This it the part where you would go ahead and plant your stem plants. Low-light thrivers include anacharis, anubias, java fern, wisteria, etc. etc. I'll let you read up on plants and make your own decisions. Colorful red and purple plants can work in a low light setup but they do tend to require better lighting than simple green plants. You can also include your hardscape decor and plants tied to it.

Add the rest of the water: same deal, use the plate method. Don't forget to condition your water to remove the chlorine!

Add your floating plants: Duckweed, frogbit, anacharis and horwort are all really easy to keep alive in a low-light setup, but again go ahead and pick out plants you like.


As for what kind of light you want to get, there are a lot of options at different prices. What are you looking to spend on lighting? That will help us steer you in the right direction. Since this is a 2.5 gallon I'd recommend a nice little LED.
Starz, this may be exactly what I needed to actually pull the trigger. someone just directing me on exactly what to do for right now. make my decisions for me since i'm so fickle all the time. I do have some minor reservations on using the potting mix vs. a different inert media but what do I know at this point? Anyway, this is the light I was planning on getting: http://www.aquatraders.com/LED-Fresh...12-p/56201.htm

i think at this point maybe my big question will be what kind of filter to use. that the plants are hugely beneficial for filtration, but I'm sure I need supplemental for water movement.

Do people use ATO's in planted tanks like they do in reef tanks? I was thinking of doing that. I typically don't actually do water changes on my tank right now with the betta. I see about .5gallon evap per day and just top off. twice a week, i'll blow out the rocks with a eye dropper to stir things up for the AquaClear30 I have on there to suck it up. I'll clean the filter every 2 - 3 weeks or so (the sponge and housing, not my porcelain plugs). Is that ok with planted tanks or are actual water changes necessary.

Oh, and FYI, I have well water that goes through a sediment filter, then a UV filter, so no detectable chlorine for me. I may even use RO/DI that I use for my reef tank - is that okay for the plants or am I taking necessary natural nutrients away from the plants?

Thanks again all!
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:15 PM   #6
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id go for a dirt based betta tank with a dwarf sag carpet and maybe anubias
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NcRoW14 View Post
Starz, this may be exactly what I needed to actually pull the trigger. someone just directing me on exactly what to do for right now. make my decisions for me since i'm so fickle all the time. I do have some minor reservations on using the potting mix vs. a different inert media but what do I know at this point? Anyway, this is the light I was planning on getting: http://www.aquatraders.com/LED-Fresh...12-p/56201.htm

i think at this point maybe my big question will be what kind of filter to use. that the plants are hugely beneficial for filtration, but I'm sure I need supplemental for water movement.

Do people use ATO's in planted tanks like they do in reef tanks? I was thinking of doing that. I typically don't actually do water changes on my tank right now with the betta. I see about .5gallon evap per day and just top off. twice a week, i'll blow out the rocks with a eye dropper to stir things up for the AquaClear30 I have on there to suck it up. I'll clean the filter every 2 - 3 weeks or so (the sponge and housing, not my porcelain plugs). Is that ok with planted tanks or are actual water changes necessary.

Oh, and FYI, I have well water that goes through a sediment filter, then a UV filter, so no detectable chlorine for me. I may even use RO/DI that I use for my reef tank - is that okay for the plants or am I taking necessary natural nutrients away from the plants?

Thanks again all!
Glad I could help! That looks like a good lighting option and should provide the correct amount of light needed in your setup. And a nice price too!

Bettas like filters with low current so most people use sponge filters. They are also good in a planted tank setup because no current means no disturbed plants, but the bubbles still create surface movement. This is the type I use:
I have mine hooked up to a nice little quiet air pump and I put a control valve in the tubing so I can adjust the flow that way.

My 2.5 NPT does need minimal water changes, I mostly do it just to make sure there aren't any harmful inorganic compounds or hormones that aren't affected by filters building up. I would say I just top off most of the time but about once every two weeks I'll do a 50% water change. I don' know much about RO/DI systems so I'll let someone else answer that question
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:13 PM   #8
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Occasional wc's go a long way to keeping good water conditions, evaporting water leaves heavier concentrations that need to occasionally be diluted with new water. On my 2.5g and smaller tanks, I do weekly wc of about 25%, if I'm getting really heavy evaporation I'll do a smaller mid-week change as well. What you want to avoid is building up a heavily mineralized water, end up doing a big wc and shocking your tank with the sudden change in water chemistry. Ditto if you end up moving plants or fish to a new tank.

Personally, I'd skip the dirt/sand cap at this point in favor of something like fluorite for a first tank. There's fewer steps (buy, rinse well, add to tank, done) and you don't have to wait out the ammonia before adding livestock.

RO/DI water will need to be re-mineralized. In my area, the water is incredibly hard, so I run a mix of RO and treated tap water in some of my softer tanks to get the conditions I need.

Lastly, while bettas are highly adaptable, keep your betta in mind in your plant and hardscape choices. Floating plants or those that have leaves that reach the surface will help the betta feel more secure and provide shaded areas. Fine, dense plantings do best with higher flow to keep them clean whereas bettas prefer moderate to low flow rates. Bettas will explore any openings, caves or holes--so hardscape shouldn't have rough or spikey surfaces that could damage their delicate fins. And bettas are stubborn enough to do it--I had to pull a favorite piece of driftwood out of my betta tank to sand it down as my finned idiot insisted on trying to swim thru the open hole in it--and tore his fins several times trying to fit thru.
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Old 09-26-2012, 02:58 PM   #9
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Thanks everyone for the input. I should be starting on this journey in about a week or two. I currently have my tank set up at my office and I'm changing jobs and won't be able to have the tank at the new place. Once I'm finished here and get it home, I'll set up my betta in a temporary home while I get the 2.5 cleaned and cycled.

Here's what I'm thinking:

Filtration:
Either a DIY Sponge filter or a Whisper 3i (undecided at this point).

Substrate:
I'm going to go ahead with the natural substrate and use the potting mix/sand as suggested by babystarz. I know this may be the more difficult way to do it, but hey no guts no glory right??? And it also seem like a more natural approach vs. using something like the Black Diamond media or SMS or something like that.

Lighting:
I should be seeing this slim little guy in the mail today or tomorrow! http://www.aquatraders.com/LED-Fresh...12-p/56201.htm
I'm thinking that I may need to modify the leg stands a bit to raise it slightly, but I'm sure the tank will let me know if/when I see too much brown algae growth (does that seem logical?) In addition, and this is long down the line, I will plan to modify the fixture to put the 460nm and 10K LED's on separate switches and split the power supply so I can have them on individual timers. Probably looking at a few months down the road for this one as I'm more concerned with creating a nice little habitat for Seaman (my round tail betta) that can flourish.

TANK:
2.5 Gallon (not sure manufacturer. Standard dimensions.

Plants:
Here's the difficult one. There are so many beautiful plants out there. So I'll need some input please.

REAR

ALTERNANTHERA REINECKII
HYGROPHILA CORYMBOSA 'STRICTA'
LIMNOPHILA AROMATICA
MYRIOPHYLLUM PROPINQUUM
LUDWIGIA INCLINATA VAR. VERTICILLATA 'CUBA'

FRONT:

MYRIOPHYLLUM TUBERCULATUM
ROTALA INDICA
LUDWIGIA ARCUATA

Ground Cover (I think these do that??)

ELEOCHARIS ACICULARIS
RICCIA SP. 'DWARF'


Now I know I can't have all of these plants in such a tiny tank. That's why I need help. What do you think will thrive best for me and what can go together? Any input is hugely appreciated on this part!


Additional notes:

I plan to use Dr. Tim's one and only to help the cycle process along a bit and I'll dose to 2ppm ammonia until ammonia and nitrites read 0 inside of 24 hours (usually in about 3-4 days in my experience). I've had good success with it in the past. I have well water that runs through a sediment filter then a UV filter that I'll use for filling, water changes, and top-off. I'll go one more step and run it through my Britta pitcher just for good measure before filling the tank. Not sure if it's necessary, but I've been doing that already so it's already a habit and makes it easy for top-off to just have the pitcher pre-filled and conditioned waiting to be used.

For now I don't have plans to run CO2. I'm hoping that I can get away without it as the wife isn't interested in seeing a canister and air hoses where the tank will be going. We'll see if it works out.

I'll plan for 20-25% water changes every 2-3 weeks or as needed in between. At some point i'll set up an automatic top-off system to keep the water level consistent as well. In the mean time, i'll top off daily as necessary. I plan to keep the temp at around 77-78. My house is fairly temperate at 70 year round, so I'll utilize a small heater in hopes to regulate the temperature.

Two final questions (for now):

1. Do I plant the tank before the tank is fully cycled? It seem logical that the plants will provide much more surface area for the bacteria to multiply and help the process, but I'm worried that ammonia spikes will kill the plants.

2. What is the best way or where is the best place to buy my plants?

And once again Thanks everyone for helping me along this journey!
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Old 09-26-2012, 07:11 PM   #10
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Bump for an expert to tell me how bad my plant choices are??? Or maybe how amazing i am for coming up with the perfect ecosystem on my first try HAHAHAH...
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:02 PM   #11
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I think your light selection may be on the very low side for some of the plants you specified. Perhaps using a clamp light with a 6500K spiral bulb would do and it is cheaper.
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NcRoW14 View Post

Plants:
Here's the difficult one. There are so many beautiful plants out there. So I'll need some input please.

REAR

ALTERNANTHERA REINECKII - I worry that this one might need more light
HYGROPHILA CORYMBOSA 'STRICTA' - Good choice, will need pruning oten
LIMNOPHILA AROMATICA - Will need iron and good ferts
MYRIOPHYLLUM PROPINQUUM - Good choice, will need pruning oten
LUDWIGIA INCLINATA VAR. VERTICILLATA 'CUBA' - Might not look as nice as in a high light tank

FRONT:

MYRIOPHYLLUM TUBERCULATUM - I'm prejudiced against milfoil lol! It looks pretty but may be fickle to work with.
ROTALA INDICA - Great choice, I have some of this in my low light setup.
LUDWIGIA ARCUATA - Good choice but will need to be pruned often.

Ground Cover (I think these do that??)

ELEOCHARIS ACICULARIS - I think this one may need CO2 to be encouraged to spread out horizontally?
RICCIA SP. 'DWARF' - Possibly the same issue for this one but if you start with a large specimen it could work out. Still, you'll probably be seeing it more apt to grow up towards the light than spread out.


Now I know I can't have all of these plants in such a tiny tank. That's why I need help. What do you think will thrive best for me and what can go together? Any input is hugely appreciated on this part!

1. Do I plant the tank before the tank is fully cycled? It seem logical that the plants will provide much more surface area for the bacteria to multiply and help the process, but I'm worried that ammonia spikes will kill the plants.

2. What is the best way or where is the best place to buy my plants?

And once again Thanks everyone for helping me along this journey!
1. Some people do plant the tank before it's fully cycled, I prefer to wait because some plants are sensitive to ammonia spikes and can melt. On the other hand, plants do help cycle faster. Your call.

2. Try the best you can to find your plants at local fish stores or people near you selling them. This will be the best way to get healthy plants - some just don't do well at all during shipping and it's hard to predict if a particular plant is likely to survive being in a box for up to a week. I've had plants arrive to me in the form of mush. That being said, I have had success with the plants shipped to me that survived the initial shipping experience. If you're not able to find what you need locally, try the wanted section here. I would use places like Aquabid and eBay as a last resort, and then you'll want to buy from sellers as close to you as possible to reduce shipping time.
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:23 AM   #13
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You are all awesome. Thanks so much for the input and helping me out. I'm going to be breaking down the 2.5 today while at work and setting up the Betta in a 3gal acrylic (really plastic) tank i have laying around that's pretty beat up and scratched. I'll leave him in there while I clean and start to set up the 2.5 planted at home. I'll take pictures along the way and at some point hopefully make a "build thread" for it.

BTW, what's the best way to start from scratch with the tank. I mean as far as cleaning should i give it a 1:1 vinegar/water bath, let soak for 48 hrs and scrape hard water build up from glass? That's how I plan to clean my filter and other equip, but not sure if that's the best way to go with the tank. Any suggestions?
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Old 09-27-2012, 05:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NcRoW14 View Post
You are all awesome. Thanks so much for the input and helping me out. I'm going to be breaking down the 2.5 today while at work and setting up the Betta in a 3gal acrylic (really plastic) tank i have laying around that's pretty beat up and scratched. I'll leave him in there while I clean and start to set up the 2.5 planted at home. I'll take pictures along the way and at some point hopefully make a "build thread" for it.

BTW, what's the best way to start from scratch with the tank. I mean as far as cleaning should i give it a 1:1 vinegar/water bath, let soak for 48 hrs and scrape hard water build up from glass? That's how I plan to clean my filter and other equip, but not sure if that's the best way to go with the tank. Any suggestions?
A little vinegar would help with the hardwater. If there was some pathogens you can use a bleach solution, but I don't think that is necessary. Vinegar would be a lot safer and better for hardwater marks. I'd suggest getting a small power filter, with maybe a black nylon over the intake to protect the betta's fins. Ligting I'd reccommend checking out a small LED fixture, Those suckers can crank out the light and they have come down in price+ saves energy. I'd also reccommend one of those fancy plant substrates, such as the baked clays, probably in black. I've been happy with fluval shrimp stratum. You won't need more than a small bag for such a small tank and it will make this whole process go a lot smoother, and easy to maintain. The potting soil could turn to an algae nightmare and turn to a mess when aquascaping. As for plants, I run High light-No CO2, but with shrimp so I don't have much nitrogen input, and do well with pygmy chain swords and any kind of moss and crypts. Just be careful to feed that betta sparingly so he doesnt crank out nitrogen and feed the algae. Hope that helps
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Old 09-28-2012, 03:24 PM   #15
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Got my Light in. Nicer than I thought it would be. Decent amount of light for 1watt LED's. Pleasantly surprised by it. Got the 10k model w/ (3) 460nm 'moon lights'. I'll reserve final judgment, but I think the 10k was the right choice over the 6500 at least for now. Oh and the color I would say is 99% consistent among all the LED's. There is a very minor difference with two that look like they may shade a bit under the 10k mark, but being a lighting designer, I nit pick things like that. I don't know that most people would even realize it. Overall, the build quality is pretty sound at first look. Can't wait to get things up and running.
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