White spot on lip of Longfin White Cloud

[bigd603]

3 out of 5 of my new Long fin White clouds seem to have a white spot on their lips. It looks similar to a callous or a canker sore. I dont see any other spots on any other part of their bodies. Doesn't seem to be on any of my green neon tetras, and the white clouds seem healthy and energetic.

Any idea what this could be and if it's something I need to worry about?

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[Complexity]

Read this and see if any of it fits: http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/di...columnaris.htm

It would be helpful if you could give some more information, such as are these new fish in the tank, size of tank, how long the tank has been running, water change routine, etc.

[bigd603]

That sounds like it could be it.

They are new fish, got them about 4 days ago. I have a 12 gallon long tank, its 36" long, 9" tall and 8" deep. In addition to the 5 white clouds I have 6green neon tetras, 3 red cherry shrimp (2 of which I got on the same day as the white clouds), and about a dozen or so pond snails (don't know how much of an impact they have on the Bio load but figured I would mention them).

Ammonia is 0
Nitrite is 0
pH is 6.6

50% Water changes are performed weekly and the tank is about a month old.
The temperature of the tank when I first introduced the white clouds was around 78, then I read they need lower temperature water so I am slowly trying to reduce the water temp. It is currently 75.5 and I am aiming to get it to around 73. Could the water temperature being stressing the fish too much? Is 73 too warm for the white clouds, and would it be too cold for the tetras?

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[JackFu]

I'm on the down-hill slope of a battle with a really bad, chronic case of columnaris, so I'll add my $.02.

Lower temperatures are recommended to slow the growth of the bacteria, in general. I'm not familiar with the preferences of your fish, but get it down to 70-73 ASAP. If it's an option for you, soft water also inhibits the bacteria's growth. We have hard water around here, which makes columnaris especially problematic.

I started treatment with Tetra Fungus Guard, which has the desired nitrofurazone and furzolidone. After the first treatment, the fish looked and acted better, but they didn't look like the second treatment was going to get them completely clear.

I started additionally treating with Kanaplex, which is a kanamycin based treatment, and they're looking better by the day.

The end of the Fungus Clear treatment was yesterday, and there's one more scheduled dosing in the Kanaplex treatment tomorrow. After that, I'll put in some charcoal, give the fish a couple weeks to recover, and reassess the state of things.

I think I'll be in the clear, but this is a tough disease to fight once it gets established. The only treatment option I haven't tried at this point is Marycin 2, so if I haven't beaten it yet, that's what I'll try.

[Complexity]

I can go into a whole lot of this and that, but it would be better if I cut to the chase. If you can return those fish, return them immediately. Get them out of that tank asap and take them back to the store from which you purchased them. Get your money back. Do not buy anything else for now (except an API Freshwater Master Test Kit if you don't already have one).

Wait at least another month for your tank to fully cycle. Then get a small tank for a QT (quarantine tank). If you're not familiar with QTs, you can ask. Once you are familiar with QTs and your tank is fully cycled, then it will be time to buy a few new fish.

For now, there's just no point in messing with those white clouds. You do not want to start your tank off with columnaris. They were sick when you bought them and the store needs to take them back. Hope like hell the other fish didn't catch it as it is highly contagious and difficult to get rid of.

[bigd603]

Called the fish store, they won't take them back. Says its been too long. Apparently 4 days is too long.

He told me to bring the fish in and he will take a look at it. Thinks from the description I gave him that it might just be bruising or something. He asked if the spot looked fuzzy and I said no then he asked if the fish are eating. They are. He said that if the fish are eating well and seem active they should be OK.

Do you guys agree with that statement or is he trying to avoid giving me a refund?

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[Complexity]

He's trying to avoid a refund. However, each store has a different refund policy and it's best to know it before you buy, not after you've bought sick fish.

There are a few options you have.

One, you can get another tank for these fish (and all that goes with another tank) to keep them out of your main tank. Then buy the meds to try to treat the fish. All this will cost more than the fish and the likelihood of successfully treating them is pretty low. But you can try. This other tank is called a "hospital tank" and is how sick fish are handled. Once you no longer need the tank, you can sterilize it and use it as a "quarantine tank" (QT) for the future. I strongly recommend having a QT so this would be a positive if you go this route even if the fish die.

Two, you can euthanize the fish as humanely as possible in order to spare them the suffering of the disease and to try to prevent spreading the disease to your other fish and the rest of the tank (if that hasn't already happened). If you choose this option, we can discuss various ways of euthanizing fish.

Three, you could go back to the store, fish in a bag, and ask to speak to the manager. Take your receipt and print outs about columnaris (including pictures if you can find them) with descriptions of the symptoms, treatment, and prognosis. Print out this thread if you want. Be polite at all times, but explain that you want a full refund for the fish. If they continue to refuse, and you paid by credit card, you could leave the fish and dispute the charges on your credit card (call your credit card company first to be sure).

After educating the store on the disease and showing them the fish, if they still refuse to refund your money, you're pretty much stuck. Your only recourse is to never buy livestock from that store again (which you probably shouldn't do given what's already happened). You can also go to any of the review sites for the store and post your experience to warn others so they won't have the same thing happen to them.

I'm really sorry this happened, but it does happen sometimes to new fish owners. After you gain more experience, you'll be able to better judge the quality of the fish in the stores and know which ones to avoid. Even then, you can't guarantee that the fish are always healthy (these fish are shipped from all over the world so even the store can't be certain they're healthy). But you can learn from experience which stores are the better ones and which are not and then spend your money on the stores that won't screw you over with sick fish.

Let us know how it turns out.

[Complexity]

Here's a page with a picture of columnaris (the first disease on the list). That picture is blown up much larger than the original, and the white stuff does not look fuzzy.

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/t...es-8179/page2/

Middle of the page has a description and picture (do a page search for columnaris). Notice the physical signs state: "Occasionally slightly ragged/fuzzy appearence" (emphasis mine).

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_...ification.html

Under the section "Mouth Fungus" notice it states, "In its early stages, it starts off as gray/white lines near the mouth."

http://bettacare101.com/bacterialdisease/

I cannot see how the store can argue with you if you have all this printed off when you go in. It's not like you're trying to rip them off. Even if it wasn't columnaris, they sold you sick fish and you should receive a refund.

[bigd603]

After looking over all this information about columnaris I am not 100% sure that's what I have here. From what I can tell columnaris will effect almost any part of the body, but on all 3 of the fish that have it, it is on the lower lip, however this could just be a coincidence.
I do notice that the fish will fight over the flake food, sometimes biting it right out of each other's mouths. I don't know if this could be a cause but thought it is worth mentioning.

It also doesn't look "fuzzy" at all, more like a grain of salt or a callous.

I am still going to bring them back to fish store and see what they have to say about it. I will let you know how that goes.

Thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate the help. Regardless of how all this turns out I am definitely getting a quarantine/hospital tank.

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[Complexity]

It's hard to say for sure what it is, but I can tell you that it's not normal. Fish fight over food all the time, and even if they get injured in the process, their injuries don't turn white. The white "stuff" is most likely an infection.

White "grains of salt" are usually more indicative of ich (full name is ichthyophthirius multifiliis) which is a parasite. However, ich usually doesn't appear on the mouth like that so to have three fish with it only on the mouth would be contradictory.

The store may try to say you caused the illness; however, it would be odd for only the white clouds to get sick when there's other similar fish in the tank. It's much more likely that the white clouds were sick in the store tank (and maybe even before they got them). Look at the other white clouds in the store to see if any of them have the same symptoms. If so, then it would be very hard for the store to say you caused it.

Further, most of the time when people put new fish in new tanks, the problem is ammonia and/or nitrite poisoning, neither of which cause any spots. Instead, it burns the fishes' gills, causing them to be listless, not eat, clamp their fins, and gasp at the surface. None of that fits the symptoms of the white clouds. Generally, tanks that cause infections are old, dirty tanks, not new ones so that doesn't fit your situation either.

I think you're the first person I have ever told to return fish like this, but the symptoms just seem so unlikely to be something you did and so likely to be something the fish had before you bought them that it just seems unfair to have you start this wonderful hobby by being sold sick fish.

[JackFu]

Originally Posted by bigd603

After looking over all this information about columnaris I am not 100% sure that's what I have here. From what I can tell columnaris will effect almost any part of the body, but on all 3 of the fish that have it, it is on the lower lip, however this could just be a coincidence.
I do notice that the fish will fight over the flake food, sometimes biting it right out of each other's mouths. I don't know if this could be a cause but thought it is worth mentioning.

It also doesn't look "fuzzy" at all, more like a grain of salt or a callous.

It sounds exactly like columnaris to me. That's exactly how it starts. The confusion comes from the strains behaving differently under different conditions with different fish. I first noticed my outbreak as white spots on the lips of neon tetras. It was never fuzzy. The fish didn't die outright. It just continued spreading and getting worse until I finally figured out what I was dealing with. Now, after two weeks of treatment, I might have gotten rid of it.

Take the fish back and watch the others for symptoms. If you see them, don't hesitate to treat it, and treat it correctly.

[bigd603]

I took them back to the store, the manager insisted that he just thought it was "damage during shipping." Yeah OK. He didn't refund my money but he did offer to take the fish back and give me store credit even though I didn't have a receipt. I think that's pretty fair.

I will be keeping a close eye on my tetras over the next couple weeks to see if they show any signs of columnaris. Do you guys know how long it would take to show up in an infected fish?

In the mean time I'm definitely going to pick up a 10 gallon quarantine tank. Luckily I am currently in the process of transitioning from a small ZooMed canister filter to an eheim 2213, so I can just use the ZooMed on the QT when I get it.

Shame I had to return them, but it was a valuable lesson and hopefully the tetras don't come down with it.

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[Complexity]

I'm glad you at least got store credit (that's fair since you didn't have the receipt). Let's just hope your other fish didn't get sick. I'm not sure how long it takes for columnaris to show symptoms, but maybe one of the links I gave earlier will say.

Yeah, it was a good lesson. We all learn it at some point. Check the fish and tanks carefully when you buy fish, ask about return policies before buying, and use a QT. Nothing guarantees that you won't get another sick fish at some point, but with experience, you can better avoid problems like these.

Also check out the different LFS in your areas. Hopefully you'll find one that takes better care of their fish and their customers. Often the locally run fish-only stores are better than the large chain pet stores since their entire business makes it or breaks it on repeat fish business.

[Willamette]

I've got a Serpae tetra with a single grain of sal sized white spec on his lower lip. Has been there for months and has not spread or changed in any way, nor is it present on other fish. The tetra is stupid healthy and active...practical leaps out of the water for food. Really doubt he's sick.

Just mention it because it sounds so similar to your White Cloud issue..

[GrampsGrunge]

Longfin White Clouds have a much more pronounced lower jaw than regular White Cloud minnows so in shipping if roughly netted and handled they could likely get an injury on their 'proboscis'.

I've found them to be extremely hardy fish, case in point, my sister introduced a few of the young I grew out, (that I gave to her,) to her backyard pond in Portland and they grew and thrived through 6 years of relatively not so benign weather.

This injury that you describe does sound familiar, on the ones I've seen the injury was more like a whitish blister but it never spread to other fish.