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Old 06-13-2012, 09:02 PM   #31
happi
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Originally Posted by jgb77 View Post
Not trying to be argumentative, but to say "you will have to try this method first and you will find the difference in plants yourself" doesn't really tell anyone anything. You said you get better plant growth, how is it better? Was there a problem with the plants before and this rectified the issue? Maybe you can talk about your plant health before dosing this way and then after, what changes in plants did you see, faster growth, bigger plants etc?
Again, I'm not trying to be critical, and respect anyone who tries to find a different or new way of doing things. I'm just trying to get a discussion going about this is all.
Thanks,
John
what else can you ask for when it will simply reduce the water changes, plant shows better color without Ca deficiency, plant will have broader leaves, stem plant grow much faster and shows very broad leafs.

i have tested when i was dosing nitrate only and it will build up at crazy amount and plant dont seems to grow as fast, i even experienced some plant melt when nitrates reached over 60-80ppm, this was just to see how the plant handle this, but they did not handle it well. most plant still grew at this level, ludwigia cuba seems to grow fast in very high nitrate. another test i carried where i had ammonia (ammonium form in low ph 7<) reading at 1-2ppm and nitrate were high 40ppm, i tested it everyday, i noticed that ammonium levels were going down very fast while nitrate levels were the same, it was clear enough that plant were going after ammonium only without touching the nitrate. i know i cant trust the test kits, but at least it gives me an idea.

i did not want to post this because we will have another war here regarding ferts. i hope my post clear some of your doubts.
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Old 06-13-2012, 09:12 PM   #32
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the goal was trying to avoid too much kno3 while keeping the Mg and Ca in the solution, i was trying to keep everything in good amount, the main source of nitrogen from this solution is Urea, Kno3 is something i extracted from Mg and Ca nitrate, if i added this from kno3 only then i wont able to add mg and ca nitrate or i will have to add it in less amount. the point was to avoid too much kno3 while keeping everything else in the solution. K2SO4 was used separate for the same reason, to avoid too much kno3, it does dissolve fine in the 1000ml solution.

you have to try the solution first then we will find out for sure.
Why would it matter if the K+ comes from K2SO4 vs KNO3 and why would it matter if the Mg/Ca comes from a NO3 anion? It does not.

Plants take up only the dissolved forms which disassociate entirely.

This is Toby's special N more than anything else. Some folks opt out and do not add the urea at all. Urea has been used a fair amount. But fish waste adds the same thing. I think the max NH4 uptake I've measured was around 0.8ppm NH4 per day. You can also come close to estimating fish waste in ppm's per day.

I used the Ca(NO3)2 and Mg(NO3)2 forms since I had a fair amount laying around for Reef and Marine plant use........and used the GH booster which is 50% K2SO4, I did not see any differences in the 120 Gallon tank.

I have a lot of shrimp and fish however.

If you lack fish/livestock etc, then adding some urea may be helpful.
I like fish, so I add them.
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Old 06-13-2012, 09:27 PM   #33
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Why would it matter if the K+ comes from K2SO4 vs KNO3 and why would it matter if the Mg/Ca comes from a NO3 anion? It does not.

Plants take up only the dissolved forms which disassociate entirely.

This is Toby's special N more than anything else. Some folks opt out and do not add the urea at all. Urea has been used a fair amount. But fish waste adds the same thing. I think the max NH4 uptake I've measured was around 0.8ppm NH4 per day. You can also come close to estimating fish waste in ppm's per day.

I used the Ca(NO3)2 and Mg(NO3)2 forms since I had a fair amount laying around for Reef and Marine plant use........and used the GH booster which is 50% K2SO4, I did not see any differences in the 120 Gallon tank.

I have a lot of shrimp and fish however.

If you lack fish/livestock etc, then adding some urea may be helpful.
I like fish, so I add them.
I have seen tobi's ferts too, he said not to add K+ and i said to add it, his ferts contain less urea and mine contain 2 times more, his contain less K+ and mine contain more of everything and his does not even contain any traces or iron while mine does, am not coping his stuff in any way, mine is more similar to pmdd formula but still different. in realty most ferts will be same or similar, am not going to change my amount 10x more just to make it sound different.

i agree with you regarding adding more fish etc, but some of us dont want too many fishes. i was only trying to help others, i have no problems using this ferts for myself and keep my mouth shut, i just wanted to gets people feedback after they try this method, maybe they like it, maybe they will even use. dont worry this wont stop people from dosing your EI dosing, i myself dosed it for long time now, but its time for me to try something different.


if this thread turn into another fert war i will request it be closed now. you had the same argument on tobi's fert and people seems to using it with great results. TOM i request please let people try this before brainwashing them. thank you
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Old 06-13-2012, 09:28 PM   #34
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what else can you ask for when it will simply reduce the water changes, plant shows better color without Ca deficiency, plant will have broader leaves, stem plant grow much faster and shows very broad leafs.

i have tested when i was dosing nitrate only and it will build up at crazy amount and plant dont seems to grow as fast, i even experienced some plant melt when nitrates reached over 60-80ppm, this was just to see how the plant handle this, but they did not handle it well. most plant still grew at this level, ludwigia cuba seems to grow fast in very high nitrate. another test i carried where i had ammonia (ammonium form in low ph 7<) reading at 1-2ppm and nitrate were high 40ppm, i tested it everyday, i noticed that ammonium levels were going down very fast while nitrate levels were the same, it was clear enough that plant were going after ammonium only without touching the nitrate. i know i cant trust the test kits, but at least it gives me an idea.

i did not want to post this because we will have another war here regarding ferts. i hope my post clear some of your doubts.
I have yet to have seen a single confirmed case of Ca++ deficient aquarium plant. It is possible. Even in non CO2 tanks, I've gone over a year without a water change and not seen any. I do add water for evaporation and I assume other folks do, there's a source of Ca++ right there.

I have folks that dose different ferts etc and I buy their plants, they buy mine etc, back and forth, I've not seen larger or broader leaves to date.
My NO3 stick at 10-30ppm consistently. High fish load, so I am getting about 0.4-0.5ppm NH4 perhaps a day. Maybe 50% of the NO3 I dose is used by plants, if that. The NH4? I cannot say how much is converted to NO3 by bacteria vs say plant uptake. But it's there for plants if they want/prefer it.
I have never suggested adding more than 30ppm as an upper range, but no harm has come to plants if it was done according to most who have done it due to their own oversight/assumptions. It's not that tough to dose and test.

Obviously..........NO3 test will show a slower decline.....for a rather obvious reason vs NH4: NH4=> bacteria will build up and remove it in any cycled tank.
So you have that working against NH4 measurements and it's also 1-2 orders smaller than NO3. If you look at what is inside the plant cell, it's mostly a vacuole, and that is filled with nutrients, mostly: NO3 and K+.

Adding more GH is wise however, much like adding more ferts or other traces or light and CO2, you expect to see more growth/better growth when you add more nutrients, GH is a mix of 2 nutrients. I've run GH down pretty low, so has ADA, without much issue, but the other end, running it higher..........produced some nicer colors, and few plants do not like higher GH, least I've not found any to date.

FWIW........
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Old 06-13-2012, 09:28 PM   #35
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Lets see Before and After picture of any sp. from your tank...Say 'Cuba', Pantanal. Any that has some hint of red...
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Old 06-13-2012, 09:38 PM   #36
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Lets see Before and After picture of any sp. from your tank...Say 'Cuba', Pantanal. Any that has some hint of red...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAqki9X7n-E

this is only after 3 weeks of dosing this fert, before that i have played around with EI dosing and nitrate levels were reading at 60+ppm and most plant melted and are now recovering.

i promise if this ferts fails for me i will switch back to EI, this ferts is still under testing purpose, that is why i have requested others to try it. it might work for them or not work for them at all.
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Old 06-13-2012, 10:28 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by happi View Post
what else can you ask for when it will simply reduce the water changes, plant shows better color without Ca deficiency, plant will have broader leaves, stem plant grow much faster and shows very broad leafs.

i have tested when i was dosing nitrate only and it will build up at crazy amount and plant dont seems to grow as fast, i even experienced some plant melt when nitrates reached over 60-80ppm, this was just to see how the plant handle this, but they did not handle it well. most plant still grew at this level, ludwigia cuba seems to grow fast in very high nitrate. another test i carried where i had ammonia (ammonium form in low ph 7<) reading at 1-2ppm and nitrate were high 40ppm, i tested it everyday, i noticed that ammonium levels were going down very fast while nitrate levels were the same, it was clear enough that plant were going after ammonium only without touching the nitrate. i know i cant trust the test kits, but at least it gives me an idea.

i did not want to post this because we will have another war here regarding ferts. i hope my post clear some of your doubts.
Again, my intention wasn't to start a fert war, heh that sounds funny. One of the things that I have learned is there is more than one way to fertilize plants, and no one way is wrong.
So then your experience is that high nitrate causes plant growth to slow down? Also what was the issue with Calcium, you were experiencing Ca deficiency with high nitrates or was that a separate issue?
Just going by the video you posted, the Pantanal is certainly liking your conditions, that cannot be argued. Also, the video said the tank had been recently redone, did you use new aqua soil or reuse your old stuff?
Thank you for the interesting discussion and your observations.
John
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Old 06-13-2012, 10:41 PM   #38
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Again, my intention wasn't to start a fert war, heh that sounds funny. One of the things that I have learned is there is more than one way to fertilize plants, and no one way is wrong.
So then your experience is that high nitrate causes plant growth to slow down? Also what was the issue with Calcium, you were experiencing Ca deficiency with high nitrates or was that a separate issue?
Just going by the video you posted, the Pantanal is certainly liking your conditions, that cannot be argued. Also, the video said the tank had been redone, did you use new aqua soil or reuse your old stuff?
Thank you for the interesting discussion and your observations.
John
thanks for understanding better John. as i said some plant did not mind the high nitrate but some sure melted away very quickly. they say if you can keep the Pantanal happy then you can keep any plant happy. i was still getting twisting of leaves while dosing GH booster, tried other methods through Ca sulfate etc, but nothing helped until i added this fert, it does respond very quickly.

am not saying high nitrate slow the growth, it actually made the Ludwigia grow very fast, you can prove it to yourself, on the other side some plant did care about the very high nitrate. when i said redone, i meant to say trimmed everything did 2-3 100% water changes and started dosing my method and Panatanl was the first one to respond. nothing else changed beside the new dosing.
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Old 06-13-2012, 11:21 PM   #39
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I have wanted to try something like this since reading about Tobi's Special N.
But Magnesium Nitrate, Calcium Nitrate are very hygroscopic (aren't they?).
That is very inconvenient for me... Just saying anyway.
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:38 AM   #40
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Happi, your tank looks good.
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Old 06-14-2012, 04:22 AM   #41
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Happi, your tank looks good.
thank you my friend
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:42 PM   #42
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Update:

guys keep in mind that this is just a trial and we need many people to test out this ferts, we still need to work on it to make it better, am not a chemist and i dont know if any of my chemicals will react with each others, i do need help from somebody to check on that for me, i know we have many great chemist here.

i just have a feeling that K2SO4 could react with Ca nitrate, but we can fix this issue by adding another chemical. like i said am still testing this fert and need your guys support. i know i will make some mistakes when making the solution.

any chemist out there who would like to share their knowledge and check on the chemicals for any kind of reactions, it would be nice of you guys.

am only doing this to help others and i have nothing else to gain from it, no fame or money.
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Old 06-14-2012, 03:40 PM   #43
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Any potential reaction between K2SO4 and Ca(NO3)2 would be of the double substitution type; where the SO4 and NO3 simply exchange positions.

But even if this were to occur, when dissolved it all exists as separate K, Ca, NO3, and SO4 ions. So as long as no reactions occur that result in a poorly soluble or insoluble chemical (which would be visible as a solid precipitate in your solution), the end result on plants is the same.

I did actually look up a bunch of these reactions some time ago. Except for the well-known iron/phosphate issue, all were of the double substitution type; and none resulted in low solubility. So no worries.
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Old 06-14-2012, 05:19 PM   #44
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Any potential reaction between K2SO4 and Ca(NO3)2 would be of the double substitution type; where the SO4 and NO3 simply exchange positions.

But even if this were to occur, when dissolved it all exists as separate K, Ca, NO3, and SO4 ions. So as long as no reactions occur that result in a poorly soluble or insoluble chemical (which would be visible as a solid precipitate in your solution), the end result on plants is the same.

I did actually look up a bunch of these reactions some time ago. Except for the well-known iron/phosphate issue, all were of the double substitution type; and none resulted in low solubility. So no worries.

thanks Cobra, thanks for giving me detailed info.

if i remember correctly we can also dissolve Fe and P in the same solution without any issue, as long as the PH of the solution stays very acidic.

one more thing, what happen if you mix all the dry ferts before adding them to water, wouldn't that cause problem. for example: if we add kno3,ca,mg,phosphate,iron etc and add it to the solution and mix it vs adding the kno3,ca,mg,phosphate in the solution first mixing it and then adding the Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate and then finally adding the iron. sorry am not a good chemist, i think you might know what am trying to ask. normally i mix the ferts one by one.
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:29 PM   #45
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You might be making something explosive as Calcium nitrate/Magnessium nitrate/Potassium nitrate is oxidizers and some of those metals and the ascorbic acid might work as fuel.
I don't think anything will happen just by mixing dry ferts, as mixtures likes these are commonly used.
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