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Old 06-12-2012, 07:36 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by m8e View Post
Didn't think of that. But this basically double the brown line(~60ppm peak). But that is for tanks that doesn't need to be dosed.

I think this theoretical peak for normal EI is 45ppm. So 60ppm maybe isn't that high?
did your graph include how much plant will uptake when you dose everyday, or is this the total amount (60ppm) from dosing only? you have to consider that too.
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:49 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by happi View Post
did your graph include how much plant will uptake when you dose everyday, or is this the total amount (60ppm) from dosing only? you have to consider that too.
oh, sorry. Should have added this.
Daily usage in %:
brown = 0%
green = 5%
yellow = 10%
red = 15%
blue = 25%
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:28 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by m8e View Post
oh, sorry. Should have added this.
Daily usage in %:
brown = 0%
green = 5%
yellow = 10%
red = 15%
blue = 25%
how you got the 60ppm of nitrate?? when dosing this fert you are adding about 2ppm of nitrate per day from urea and nitrate. this only makes 28ppm total for 2 weeks.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:19 PM   #19
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Hi Happi,

CH4N2O (aq)+ H20(l) -->2NH3 (aq)+CO2 (aq)

If I am not mistaken the urea, with the addition of water, turns into NH3 (ammonia)
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:33 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by happi View Post
if you meant to say why dose 20-30K+ which will not dissolve, are you saying in the solution or in the tank?? because i meant to say dose those amounts during water changes to the tank, not from the solution but dry dose it from K2SO4.
I meant putting more K in the solution. If you can get enough in the solution, then you can eliminate the weekly dry dose. The substitution I showed can get more K in the solution, with the same amount of nitrate; should you reach a point where no additional K2SO4 will dissolve.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:36 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Happi,

CH4N2O (aq)+ H20(l) -->2NH3 (aq)+CO2 (aq)

If I am not mistaken the urea, with the addition of water, turns into NH3 (ammonia)
you are right about it turning it into ammonia, but in ammonium form in lower PH 7< and yes it could turn into ammonia if you have higher Ph 7>

but even in higher PH if you do add this fert, urea will quickly be absorbed by the plants, if there is any urea left behind which plant did no use right away could turn into ammonia and then nitrate, depending on your filter and bacteria.

its little risky on higher ph, but there is something to think about, if you have high ph and harder water and you use Seachem ferts then you should have no problem using my recipe.

in the past i have used seachem products on my hard water with 7.4 Ph and there was no problem with fish and plants. but co2 was on that setup for 24/7 and this might have kept the ph on the lower side.

only way to find out how much nitrate you will build up using this ferts is to test it with some good kits. i did not rely on the test when i does it in my tank, all i know is i have a german blue ram in there during the testing of this ferts and he is still in the same tank.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:42 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by DarkCobra View Post
I meant putting more K in the solution. If you can get enough in the solution, then you can eliminate the weekly dry dose. The substitution I showed can get more K in the solution, with the same amount of nitrate; should you reach a point where no additional K2SO4 will dissolve.
my friend i think you know the reason why i did not add it in the solution. number 1 that i was afraid it will not dissolve properly and limit me from adding other ferts. plus i thought its better to dose more or less during water changes, so you can adjust your K+ dosing however you want, some like to dose less or more.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:44 PM   #23
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Can you describe a bit what difference you see ,if any, with this dosing in regards to plant growth/health? In another words, what are you getting out of it that would not be achieved with the addition of say KN03 instead of urea?
Thanks,
John
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Old 06-13-2012, 12:11 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by happi View Post
my friend i think you know the reason why i did not add it in the solution. number 1 that i was afraid it will not dissolve properly and limit me from adding other ferts. plus i thought its better to dose more or less during water changes, so you can adjust your K+ dosing however you want, some like to dose less or more.
Although the amount of K2SO4 that will dissolve in a given amount of water is limited compared to most other dry ferts, I haven't found that even a nearly K2SO4-saturated solution interferes significantly with dissolving large quantities of other ferts. Each dissolved substance tends to act somewhat independently. I remember an old chemistry experiment from school where you dissolve salt in water until it can accept no more; yet it can still accept a lot of sugar.

Few people feel you can have too much K. Folks tend to be more sensitive about their nitrate levels, as I'm sure you've noticed from the comments here.

You asked how much is too much. My 46G, with standard EI dosing and a heavy fish load, was peaking at 150ppm right before the weekly water change. That really is too much, and I had serious problems as a result.

Eliminating nitrate from my ferts dropped the peak level to 75ppm - completely from fish food/waste. Still more than I'd like, I'd prefer to have 40 ppm max.

But some folks prefer to keep nitrates at 20ppm max. Or ever lower.

An all-in-one solution won't appeal these folks, or anyone who wants to maintain specific nutrient levels. The people who use all-in-ones just want easy dosing. And that's why I say include all necessary K, instead of requiring a separate K dose.
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Old 06-13-2012, 11:12 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by DarkCobra View Post
Although the amount of K2SO4 that will dissolve in a given amount of water is limited compared to most other dry ferts, I haven't found that even a nearly K2SO4-saturated solution interferes significantly with dissolving large quantities of other ferts. Each dissolved substance tends to act somewhat independently. I remember an old chemistry experiment from school where you dissolve salt in water until it can accept no more; yet it can still accept a lot of sugar.

Few people feel you can have too much K. Folks tend to be more sensitive about their nitrate levels, as I'm sure you've noticed from the comments here.

You asked how much is too much. My 46G, with standard EI dosing and a heavy fish load, was peaking at 150ppm right before the weekly water change. That really is too much, and I had serious problems as a result.

Eliminating nitrate from my ferts dropped the peak level to 75ppm - completely from fish food/waste. Still more than I'd like, I'd prefer to have 40 ppm max.

But some folks prefer to keep nitrates at 20ppm max. Or ever lower.

An all-in-one solution won't appeal these folks, or anyone who wants to maintain specific nutrient levels. The people who use all-in-ones just want easy dosing. And that's why I say include all necessary K, instead of requiring a separate K dose.
thanks for your advice my friend, i did want to keep the nitrate levels low in the solution, because most of the nitrate will come from fish, waste etc. but still i included some nitrate in the solution anyway, if you dose this fert you are adding about 0.70ppm of urea and 1ppm of nitrate everyday and 1.50ppm K+ everyday, this should be good enough IMO. extra K+ never hurt a thing and you can always dose more. i will test out a solution which will include more K+, i will also try to make all in one solution. its possible to make one including P and iron together if you are adding Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate to your solution.

as of right now this solution still works well.
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Old 06-13-2012, 11:16 AM   #26
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Can you describe a bit what difference you see ,if any, with this dosing in regards to plant growth/health? In another words, what are you getting out of it that would not be achieved with the addition of say KN03 instead of urea?
Thanks,
John
IME plant dont use too much nitrate and it will keep on building up, they use N4H very fast, discus fish people can experience a great plant growth for an example.

you will have to try this method first and you will find the difference in plants yourself.
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:36 PM   #27
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Well I have to say that this has peaked my interest but since I am not one to try new things I hope someone else will try it and post their results.
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:54 PM   #28
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how you got the 60ppm of nitrate?? when dosing this fert you are adding about 2ppm of nitrate per day from urea and nitrate. this only makes 28ppm total for 2 weeks.
I did something wrong, thats how.

But I get it to 3.2ppm which means 44.8ppm.(if the urea gets converted to NO3)

Calcium Nitrate = 17.1% N
20ml * 0.01 * 0.171 = 0.0342g N
Magnessium Nitrate = 18.9% N
20ml * 0.01 * 0.189 = 0.0378g N
Urea = 46.6% N
20ml * 0.007 * 0.466 = 0.06524g N

0.0342 + 0.0378 + 0.06524 = 0.1372g N = 137.2mg N

NO3 22.6% N
137.2mg / 0.226 = 607mg NO3

607mg / 189.2 liter = 3.2 mg/l (ppm)

Edit: A 50% water change removes 50% of the ferts so a tank can start out with 22.4ppm NO3 in the beginning of the second 2 week period.
22.4ppm + 44.8ppm = 67.2ppm
The next 2 week period can start out with 33.6ppm and so on.
33.6ppm + 44.8ppm = 78.4ppm
39.2ppm + 44.8ppm = 84ppm
42ppm + 44.8ppm = 86.8ppm
43.4ppm + 44.8ppm = 88.2ppm
44.1ppm + 44.8ppm = 88.9ppm
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Old 06-13-2012, 05:20 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m8e View Post
I did something wrong, thats how.

But I get it to 3.2ppm which means 44.8ppm.(if the urea gets converted to NO3)

Calcium Nitrate = 17.1% N
20ml * 0.01 * 0.171 = 0.0342g N
Magnessium Nitrate = 18.9% N
20ml * 0.01 * 0.189 = 0.0378g N
Urea = 46.6% N
20ml * 0.007 * 0.466 = 0.06524g N

0.0342 + 0.0378 + 0.06524 = 0.1372g N = 137.2mg N

NO3 22.6% N
137.2mg / 0.226 = 607mg NO3

607mg / 189.2 liter = 3.2 mg/l (ppm)

Edit: A 50% water change removes 50% of the ferts so a tank can start out with 22.4ppm NO3 in the beginning of the second 2 week period.
22.4ppm + 44.8ppm = 67.2ppm
The next 2 week period can start out with 33.6ppm and so on.
33.6ppm + 44.8ppm = 78.4ppm
39.2ppm + 44.8ppm = 84ppm
42ppm + 44.8ppm = 86.8ppm
43.4ppm + 44.8ppm = 88.2ppm
44.1ppm + 44.8ppm = 88.9ppm
i think your math is correct, but no one is sure how much urea and nitrate plant will remove, think of EI dosing, we dose big amount of kno3 in each dose and do the 50% water change. we know some nitrate is left behind in the tank anyway and we stated to dose again, i cannot say for sure how much plant would uptake. i have read somewhere that plant could uptake anywhere from 1-4ppm of nitrate per day.

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But I get it to 3.2ppm which means 44.8ppm.(if the urea gets converted to NO3)
no one for sure knows whether urea will convert to nitrate or plant will use it before that happen. this is why we are getting high number of nitrate if we add it all up, otherwise its guessing work.
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Old 06-13-2012, 07:28 PM   #30
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Not trying to be argumentative, but to say "you will have to try this method first and you will find the difference in plants yourself" doesn't really tell anyone anything. You said you get better plant growth, how is it better? Was there a problem with the plants before and this rectified the issue? Maybe you can talk about your plant health before dosing this way and then after, what changes in plants did you see, faster growth, bigger plants etc?
Again, I'm not trying to be critical, and respect anyone who tries to find a different or new way of doing things. I'm just trying to get a discussion going about this is all.
Thanks,
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