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Old 02-01-2013, 05:17 PM   #151
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True, but I dose daily so wouldn't it just gas off?

Chloride vs chlorine are two VERY different things, chloride will not degas, chlorine will. Ask yourself what is the difference between chloride and chlorine.
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:23 PM   #152
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I believe the enzyme urea is needed for urea hydrolysis. I dissolved urea in a small amount of water and then added it to the tank. Urea hydrolysis may occur without an enzyme but the rate would probably be very slow. An enzyme would sure speed things up by a billion times or something like that so non enzyme catalyzed hydrolysis would be negligible.
I would also guess that Co2 should also escape into the air unless completely dissolved and that should only take a couple of hours. However, I observed the baby tears pearling for roughly 1.5 hours after urea addition until I turned off the lights. This is from roughly 0.25ppm urea addition. Until I repeat the same results I should probably refrain from these remarks so who knows. Sorry for the long answer
Thank you. It is clearly more complicated than I assumed. If one were to add 1 ppm of urea to water, what ppm of CO2 would be released as the urea hydrolyzed? I'm asking to get a feel for whether this has any chance to be a significant contributor to the CO2 in the water.
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:02 PM   #153
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No amount of ferts helped this plant out when my son and I was experimenting with it. I asked Tom about it and he said it was CO2. When we cranked up the CO2 the plant surprisingly responded very well to it.



I've come to one conclusion. Plants don't care where the ferts come from the most important thing is CO2. Thats just my opinion.

Dan
To be fair, R mac does well with lower KH's, I've had trouble no matter what I seemed to do at KH of 11 or 17 in various places I've lived. So we do find a lot of exceptions also. I can grow the snot out of it in my 1 degree tap water here though.
Growth rates will vary 20X even under good conditions for various light/CO2 combinations(see Tropica's example with light and CO2), this in turn, will obviously influence nutrient demand 10-20X.

That's a pretty big target to hit with a narrow range dosing routine.
Rich sediments or rich water column will hit it, but obviously, less can also hit the lower ranges.
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:09 PM   #154
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Thank you. It is clearly more complicated than I assumed. If one were to add 1 ppm of urea to water, what ppm of CO2 would be released as the urea hydrolyzed? I'm asking to get a feel for whether this has any chance to be a significant contributor to the CO2 in the water.
CO(NH2)2 (s) + H2O = 2NH3 + CO2

For each mole of urea, you get 1 mole of CO2 and 2 moles of NH3, actually mostly NH4 due to the pH's we have.

Not much, I've added up to 0.8 ppm per day of NH4 from NH4Cl and Urea sources. So if you dose .5 ppm of NH4 from urea, you are not getting very much CO2 from that.

I use fish for NH4 generally though since they like stuff like water and and all
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:35 PM   #155
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Dantra

we can end this debate now, i am here to only help our TPT members and in return i haven't ask anything else, no money nada nothing. Tobi's was very smart and i would say clever to use the Ca Mg nitrate to provide Ca and Mg, nitrates are highly soluble while Mg Ca sulfate struggles to stay in the solution, if you or others feel that whatever am doing is exact copy of his fert then we can stop it here and we can request the mod to close this thread.

i admire Tobi's work, i have learned some stuff from him, if he was here on TPT forum i would personally thank him. but his work also came from other sources, i also looked at many sources including his work, pmdd, KEKON's work, there are many members who are involved in it.

if you still feel that this is his copy then find me a different source of Ca and Mg which are highly soluble and are not based on sulfates. this will make the ingredients looks different on the paper, resulting in completely different fertilizer, but with same concept, just like any other fert. the plant will still respond and grow.

i am working on next release which will include at least 0.30-0.40ppm of Mg and 0.50-0.70ppm of Ca, based on my research plant can use anywhere between 0.50-1ppm of Ca and 0.20-0.50ppm of Mg per day. this will also decrease or limit the needed for GH booster etc, also resulting in less need for water changes.

last thing i want to say is that thanks to everyone who are trying the fert and testing it. this is only beneficial for our TPT community.
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:36 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
Thank you. It is clearly more complicated than I assumed. If one were to add 1 ppm of urea to water, what ppm of CO2 would be released as the urea hydrolyzed? I'm asking to get a feel for whether this has any chance to be a significant contributor to the CO2 in the water.
You're most welcome. You'd get the same concentration of Co2 as urea due to the same stoichiometry. I.e. 1 ppm, not significant enough overall.

Another update: I only noticed pearling in the area where I added the dissolved urea (near the return from the filter) so it seems localized. The other side of the tank did not have any pearling so I added one pellet to the other side (other side of the return) and some time later the baby tears are pearling as well. So the Co2 released it seems to have a localized effect. The return from the filter is directed somewhat upwards so there is probably reasonable flow. I assume once urea is dissolved it should assume the density of the water so I am not sure why this happens.
The question is why the pearling now? Is ~0.25ppm Co2 enough to sustain photosynthesis for 5-6 hours? Or did it just kick start everything? (induced protein synthesis????)

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Dantra

we can end this debate now, i am here to only help our TPT members and in return i haven't ask anything else, no money nada nothing. Tobi's was very smart and i would say clever to use the Ca Mg nitrate to provide Ca and Mg, nitrates are highly soluble while Mg Ca sulfate struggles to stay in the solution, if you or others feel that whatever am doing is exact copy of his fert then we can stop it here and we can request the mod to close this thread.

i admire Tobi's work, i have learned some stuff from him, if he was here on TPT forum i would personally thank him. but his work also came from other sources, i also looked at many sources including his work, pmdd, KEKON's work, there are many members who are involved in it.

if you still feel that this is his copy then find me a different source of Ca and Mg which are highly soluble and are not based on sulfates. this will make the ingredients looks different on the paper, resulting in completely different fertilizer, but with same concept, just like any other fert. the plant will still respond and grow.

i am working on next release which will include at least 0.30-0.40ppm of Mg and 0.50-0.70ppm of Ca, based on my research plant can use anywhere between 0.50-1ppm of Ca and 0.20-0.50ppm of Mg per day. this will also decrease or limit the needed for GH booster etc, also resulting in less need for water changes.

last thing i want to say is that thanks to everyone who are trying the fert and testing it. this is only beneficial for our TPT community.
The use of Mg/Ca nitrate predates every aquatic plant fertilizer. Please look up Knop's nutrient solution. It was developed in the 1860s or something. Tobi's fertilizer and the fertilizer listed in this thread is a slightly modified Knop/Hoagland solution (macronutrient wise). Not to downplay his and your contribution in making it popular but not completely original.
What is the purpose of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate? Not for preservation I presume.

Last edited by fattboa; 02-01-2013 at 07:39 PM.. Reason: EDIT
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:12 PM   #157
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You're most welcome. You'd get the same concentration of Co2 as urea due to the same stoichiometry. I.e. 1 ppm, not significant enough overall.

Another update: I only noticed pearling in the area where I added the dissolved urea (near the return from the filter) so it seems localized. The other side of the tank did not have any pearling so I added one pellet to the other side (other side of the return) and some time later the baby tears are pearling as well. So the Co2 released it seems to have a localized effect. The return from the filter is directed somewhat upwards so there is probably reasonable flow. I assume once urea is dissolved it should assume the density of the water so I am not sure why this happens.
The question is why the pearling now? Is ~0.25ppm Co2 enough to sustain photosynthesis for 5-6 hours? Or did it just kick start everything? (induced protein synthesis????)



The use of Mg/Ca nitrate predates every aquatic plant fertilizer. Please look up Knop's nutrient solution. It was developed in the 1860s or something. Tobi's fertilizer and the fertilizer listed in this thread is a slightly modified Knop/Hoagland solution (macronutrient wise). Not to downplay his and your contribution in making it popular but not completely original.
What is the purpose of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate? Not for preservation I presume.
nothing is original in this world my friend, i will give you good example:

who made the first jet fighter?? Russia? USA? Germany?? even if one of them made it first and later other copied it, then who get the credit? other have made minor changes to the jet with better engine, tail, wings etc, the concept stated the same, jet flew either way, weather it had more bigger wings or smaller, the only difference was slight improvement. we are talking about same for the fertilizer, the original idea of fertilizer can go back many years, but we continue to modify it for improvement. i never said mine was original, i have clearly said that it was created based on research, observation etc.

What is the purpose of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate?

one chemical keep the solution very very acidic and other one keeps it fresh, think of powerade for example.
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:38 PM   #158
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Dantra

we can end this debate now
No debate just a discussion, don't take it personal. I've actually commended you if you improved on what "Tobi" has done. I was just pointing it out, you know, where it was used previously when it was introduced. Acknowledgements and references aren't bad things, no matter to whom it's referring. I didn't know fertilizers was such a hot topic.

Enjoy your ferts and happy planting.

Dan
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:04 PM   #159
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nothing is original in this world my friend, i will give you good example:

who made the first jet fighter?? Russia? USA? Germany?? even if one of them made it first and later other copied it, then who get the credit? other have made minor changes to the jet with better engine, tail, wings etc, the concept stated the same, jet flew either way, weather it had more bigger wings or smaller, the only difference was slight improvement. we are talking about same for the fertilizer, the original idea of fertilizer can go back many years, but we continue to modify it for improvement. i never said mine was original, i have clearly said that it was created based on research, observation etc.

What is the purpose of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate?

one chemical keep the solution very very acidic and other one keeps it fresh, think of powerade for example.
I definitely understand your point. Thank your for the explanation. I assume keeping it acidic is due to this phenomenon?

From http://sulfur.nigc.ir/en/sulfuruses/...sulfurwithiron
Or is there another reason? I knew about the use of both for preservation.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:34 PM   #160
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I'm guessing one could simply crush up a Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) tablet and dissolve that? I realize these have other little binders like magnesium stearate and such, but they shouldn't hurt anything right?
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:04 PM   #161
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what do you guys think about using Potassium ascorbate, it release K+ and ascorbic acid into the solution, i am looking into K+ which can be mixed in same solution without solubility issue. if anyone have better option please do share.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:09 PM   #162
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I'm guessing one could simply crush up a Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) tablet and dissolve that? I realize these have other little binders like magnesium stearate and such, but they shouldn't hurt anything right?
Nope, folks have done this, you can do this for the traces. Some used various vitamins, in fact, Fe gluconate etc, those can be bought from Vitamin makers. You canb get various chelators and ligans, amino acids that are very weak organic binders.

Some used super thrive for years(I was one of them) a cocktail of plant growth regulators and vitamins. Did not do much for the plants, made me feel good though.

AA and PS are used mostly as acidification and/or anti fungal agent.
5% vinegar will also destroy KH and acidify the trace mix also, or HCL, but most have vinegar laying around somewhere.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:10 PM   #163
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what do you guys think about using Potassium ascorbate, it release K+ and ascorbic acid into the solution, i am looking into K+ which can be mixed in same solution without solubility issue. if anyone have better option please do share.
That will work fine.
Vinegar, HCL etc also.

HCL was used for years for PMDD.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:13 PM   #164
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What is the purpose of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate?

one chemical keep the solution very very acidic and other one keeps it fresh, think of powerade for example.
I think vinegar might be better, since it removes the KH vs AA, PS is very good for anti fungal, but we often have and use Excel, and glutaraldehyde is a great biocide that we can use also. I use Excel personally.

So there are few organic acids and biocides available we already have laying around. No need to hunt for special chemicals if we have stuff already around the house.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:31 PM   #165
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thanks tom, i will look into it, looks like Potassium ascorbate can be found easily but the problem is messurment, unless there is calc like WET's calc which can break down the numbers for us.

Monoammonium Phosphate also sounds good, it will provide P and NH4, but messurment might be a problem IMO. it is also good for acidic solution, which we are trying to make.

am not expert but here i go

Monopotassium phosphate 136.086 g/mol
Monoammonium Phosphate 115.03 g mol−1

so we will add about 10% more of Monoammonium Phosphate vs Monopotassium phosphate in the solution to get same amount of P??
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