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Old 01-30-2013, 10:02 PM   #136
fattboa
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Originally Posted by happi View Post
Fattboa

i highly suggest reading this reasearch paper, this will unlock many question and answers, its quite long but very useful.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X6862E/X6862E03.htm
Thank you for the suggestion. I just checked the sources (did NOT read it yet) and they seem to be ancient. Are they still relevant?
I need to read a lot more about botany and aquatic plants in general. Funny how I could not care less about it while in college. I'll try searching in the library for more recent publications if I have some time away from the lab.
Thank you
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:13 PM   #137
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i would but i need a some source of S which come from K2SO4, S is also important for plant growth, it should not be completely taken out. plus i think Cl is bad for plants if its overdosed.

True, but I dose daily so wouldn't it just gas off?
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:24 PM   #138
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True, but I dose daily so wouldn't it just gas off?

aaron, i never really used it before, i dont know if it gas out or not.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:34 PM   #139
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Since I could not find all of the chemicals listed, I tried urea by itself. Strangely enough, the baby tears started pearling almost immediately after addition of dissolved urea (4 dissolved pellets into ~200L). I added the the small amount due to the stoichiometric ratio and since my pH is above 7 I believe (although the NH3:NH4 ratio is probably low at pH 7ish). No Co2 is added. I know one of the products is Co2 of urea hydrolysis but it works that fast? Or is there some other explanation?
Would love to here some input about this and my previous points.
Happy growing everyone - baby tears are still pearling ~40 minutes after urea addition
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:03 AM   #140
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Tobi also stated K+ stunting the plants, this is not true at all, plant need K+ more than any other things, IMO it should be always higher, least 3 times higher than the Nitrogen. Tobi also have taken out Urea from his fert, while i think Urea is the main player here for fast plant growth.

am not working with Tobi's fert or trying to modify it, this is not even related to his fert at all, am working on this fert based on the research i been doing on plants, how they respond to differnt sources of nitrates etc.

someone told me to use Mg sulfate and Ca sulfate to get same results but IMO it have soulibilty issue when adding in the solution, Mg and Ca nitrate were the only good source to work with. its not only the nitrate which is important here, but Mg and Ca are more important.
Seems odd that you say "your mix" has nothing to do with or is not at all related to Tobi's mix but on the Ukaps forum you used Tobi's Spezial N before you had said chemicals, this is your post from page nine from Jan 2012:
-------------------
am having a hard time finding the chemicals. cant find magnesium nitrate anywhere in USA, anyone help me find this.

i found calcium nitrate, can anyone check if this is the correct one.

[Ebay Link Removed] ... 1c22be4d49
------------------
On page ten, Tobi seemed to help you out quit a bit. Wet and Orlando also helped out. Dude just give credit where credit is due, it's rather obvious.

I actually got my ferts from a friend of mine up north but when I ran out I got the ferts I needed from Orlando:





I asked many questions about this very mix as well as others on the Barr Report. They were all very helpful. Although I didn't need the Calcium Nitrate I got it anyway because I used that in the original mix when I was testing it out with my son. I never added it to the tank that had the fauna, just the test tank that had deionized water.

My buddy up north sent this to me when I asked him about it. It was about a year ago.



Organic Sulfate of Potash??? ???


He also said I may be interested in something he was using and sent me two pounds of Monoammonium Phosphate. I'm using it but it is kicking my butt somewhat. Monoammonium Phosphate 11-52-0:



I was also sent a mixture of plant hormones with vitamins added to use during water changes and or pruning which he mixed himself after years of trail and error.

Fact is many people helped me out with ferts, mixtures, measurements but not for one second will I say it was me, my creation or mine. I just might have improved on what others had done before me as you "may" have. When I spoke with Luis Navarrow, he gave me great advice as well as Frank Wazeter and Mike Senske but not once would I think of taking their ideas or advice as my own and claim as much.

How many times has Tom Barr helped us all out with his generosity? He is relentless with his advice. He has helped me out on a number of occasions on here and the Barr Report. How many times has Tom given credit to those who deserve it? He has done it on many of occasions. The bottom line is man up and give credit where credit is due.

Enjoy the hobby, grow great plants and have fun!

Dan
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:17 AM   #141
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No amount of ferts helped this plant out when my son and I was experimenting with it. I asked Tom about it and he said it was CO2. When we cranked up the CO2 the plant surprisingly responded very well to it.



I've come to one conclusion. Plants don't care where the ferts come from the most important thing is CO2. Thats just my opinion.

Dan
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:55 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by fattboa View Post
Since I could not find all of the chemicals listed, I tried urea by itself. Strangely enough, the baby tears started pearling almost immediately after addition of dissolved urea (4 dissolved pellets into ~200L). I added the the small amount due to the stoichiometric ratio and since my pH is above 7 I believe (although the NH3:NH4 ratio is probably low at pH 7ish). No Co2 is added. I know one of the products is Co2 of urea hydrolysis but it works that fast? Or is there some other explanation?
Would love to here some input about this and my previous points.
Happy growing everyone - baby tears are still pearling ~40 minutes after urea addition
When you add urea to water, does it immediately dissolve, and does that mean it undergoes hydrolysis? If so, the CO2 released should only last a couple of hours or so in the water before escaping to the air. Or, am I missing something, since I am no chemist?
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Old 02-01-2013, 04:43 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by dantra View Post
Seems odd that you say "your mix" has nothing to do with or is not at all related to Tobi's mix but on the Ukaps forum you used Tobi's Spezial N before you had said chemicals, this is your post from page nine from Jan 2012:
-------------------
am having a hard time finding the chemicals. cant find magnesium nitrate anywhere in USA, anyone help me find this.

i found calcium nitrate, can anyone check if this is the correct one.

[Ebay Link Removed] ... 1c22be4d49
------------------
On page ten, Tobi seemed to help you out quit a bit. Wet and Orlando also helped out. Dude just give credit where credit is due, it's rather obvious.

I actually got my ferts from a friend of mine up north but when I ran out I got the ferts I needed from Orlando:





I asked many questions about this very mix as well as others on the Barr Report. They were all very helpful. Although I didn't need the Calcium Nitrate I got it anyway because I used that in the original mix when I was testing it out with my son. I never added it to the tank that had the fauna, just the test tank that had deionized water.

My buddy up north sent this to me when I asked him about it. It was about a year ago.



Organic Sulfate of Potash??? ???


He also said I may be interested in something he was using and sent me two pounds of Monoammonium Phosphate. I'm using it but it is kicking my butt somewhat. Monoammonium Phosphate 11-52-0:



I was also sent a mixture of plant hormones with vitamins added to use during water changes and or pruning which he mixed himself after years of trail and error.

Fact is many people helped me out with ferts, mixtures, measurements but not for one second will I say it was me, my creation or mine. I just might have improved on what others had done before me as you "may" have. When I spoke with Luis Navarrow, he gave me great advice as well as Frank Wazeter and Mike Senske but not once would I think of taking their ideas or advice as my own and claim as much.

How many times has Tom Barr helped us all out with his generosity? He is relentless with his advice. He has helped me out on a number of occasions on here and the Barr Report. How many times has Tom given credit to those who deserve it? He has done it on many of occasions. The bottom line is man up and give credit where credit is due.

Enjoy the hobby, grow great plants and have fun!

Dan
you are right about me posting at the UKAPS and asking questions, but after i ordered all the needed chemicals i never really got chance to try it, i thought i will take a different apparoch and try something differnt, i already knew from begning about the benefits of the urea, most tested it and failed and reported no change in plants etc, but i think they did not do it right. i was also afraid to use Urea/amonium in my tank, when i first made the fert and got many comments saying how i will have green water, algae, fish deaths etc, you can see the first few comments on my thread. pmdd also used urea but pmdd was very lean. you have to understand that when we make a fertilizer, its the same concept, NPK,Fe etc all the there is all the fertilizers, only the sources are changed and the amount is changed. you will need to do alot of testing and observe the plants, i did not do this in one day, it took me some time to make the proper balance, plants did not respond right at first try, i have to waste my time and money while trying to remake the correct balanced solution. so far this one worked well.

its true that tobi's fert only gave me more understanding of ferts but i never tried to copy his work, there is a member name KEKON, i have read his posts, his work gave me more ideas about plants growth, but my fert origanally came from PMDD with some tweaks. i have read many articles, research papers on aquatic plants and i am still learning more.

if you feel Tobi's fert is better choice, you are welcome to use his mix, instead of mine. keep in mind even a small ammount of urea makes all the difference here, its all about balance. with his fert you will have to add extra k+,p,n,fe etc, i try to keep everything in same solution beside P and K, while keeping the plants healthy and growing. i am still working on my fert, i have already included a need of more Mn in the fert, i am also working on Amino acid and differnt source of Fe to make this fert even better.

Tobi said not to add too much k+, his K+ is very lean, i said add higher ammount of K+ if you want your plants to grow.

EDIT: sorry i forgot about that i did tried tobi's fert for couple of days with no good results and went back to my own dosing. however his addition of Ca and Mg nitrate did gave me a new approach to adding it with pmdd and modify it further, which wasnt very possible with other type of salts. so i will give him a credit about Ca and Mg nitrate even though it was originally used before in other ferts.
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Old 02-01-2013, 04:53 AM   #144
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all those members including Tobi should gave credit to the first person who made the pmdd, pps pro and then tom barr's EI dosing, the idea orginally came from that. the concept of the fertilizer remain the same only the sources has been changed.

somebody else will come out with another fert tommarow which might have same stuff as Tobis, while some tweaks to it, who will you blame at that time , Tobi, Tom barr, pmdd??

if no one is intersted i can stop the experiment here and you can go buy tobi's water bottles for more money. good luck.

EDIT: i have already given Credit to PMDD, i have already stated it that idea came from PMDD.
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Old 02-01-2013, 04:59 AM   #145
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No amount of ferts helped this plant out when my son and I was experimenting with it. I asked Tom about it and he said it was CO2. When we cranked up the CO2 the plant surprisingly responded very well to it.



I've come to one conclusion. Plants don't care where the ferts come from the most important thing is CO2. Thats just my opinion.

Dan
you can ask this from Jorran, read his posts.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:53 AM   #146
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When you add urea to water, does it immediately dissolve, and does that mean it undergoes hydrolysis? If so, the CO2 released should only last a couple of hours or so in the water before escaping to the air. Or, am I missing something, since I am no chemist?
I believe the enzyme urea is needed for urea hydrolysis. I dissolved urea in a small amount of water and then added it to the tank. Urea hydrolysis may occur without an enzyme but the rate would probably be very slow. An enzyme would sure speed things up by a billion times or something like that so non enzyme catalyzed hydrolysis would be negligible.
I would also guess that Co2 should also escape into the air unless completely dissolved and that should only take a couple of hours. However, I observed the baby tears pearling for roughly 1.5 hours after urea addition until I turned off the lights. This is from roughly 0.25ppm urea addition. Until I repeat the same results I should probably refrain from these remarks so who knows. Sorry for the long answer

------------------------------
Tobi's fertilizer looks to be a slightly modified Hoagland nutrient solution which is a modified Knop solution (potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate, potassium phosphate and magnesium sulfate among others). The removal of potassium phosphate would certainly reflect his idea of too much potassium being a bad thing. The use of magnesium nitrate instead of sulfate, I am not so sure about it but have not pondered deeply. Perhaps just needed more nitrates. The use of ammonium containing compound seems to follow Hoagland.
So in the end we're using a slightly modified nutrient solution that's been used since the 1860s or something like that. (Knop is a German scientist.)
Happy planting all
EDIT: what is the benefit of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate?

Last edited by fattboa; 02-01-2013 at 11:49 AM.. Reason: EDIT
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:16 PM   #147
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you can ask this from Jorran, read his posts.
I don't understand the statement, can you link the post? That plant was stunted when I planted it and showed the progression of it as it grew on the Barr Report. Like I mentioned above, nutrients where the easy part CO2 was a pain in the rear end to get right.

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------------------------------
Tobi's fertilizer looks to be a slightly modified Hoagland nutrient solution which is a modified Knop solution (potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate, potassium phosphate and magnesium sulfate among others). The removal of potassium phosphate would certainly reflect his idea of too much potassium being a bad thing. The use of magnesium nitrate instead of sulfate, I am not so sure about it but have not pondered deeply. Perhaps just needed more nitrates. The use of ammonium containing compound seems to follow Hoagland.
So in the end we're using a slightly modified nutrient solution that's been used since the 1860s or something like that. (Knop is a German scientist.)
Happy planting all
EDIT: what is the benefit of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate?
Tobi's idea was to create sort of a "super nitrogen solution", he kept everything separate by design. It was his intention to do so. He didn't keep it separate because he thought it was a bad thing, he wanted control over it. Keeping it separate I believe is the best thing you can do because every tank is different, one tank may need a little of potassium phosphate while another may need it in abundance. Hence the genius of keeping it separate.

Exactly, thus the courtesy of acknowledgements.

Dan
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:47 PM   #148
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I don't understand the statement, can you link the post? That plant was stunted when I planted it and showed the progression of it as it grew on the Barr Report. Like I mentioned above, nutrients where the easy part CO2 was a pain in the rear end to get right.



Tobi's idea was to create sort of a "super nitrogen solution", he kept everything separate by design. It was his intention to do so. He didn't keep it separate because he thought it was a bad thing, he wanted control over it. Keeping it separate I believe is the best thing you can do because every tank is different, one tank may need a little of potassium phosphate while another may need it in abundance. Hence the genius of keeping it separate.

Exactly, thus the courtesy of acknowledgements.

Dan
read post #79

co2 was only increased after plants were already growing fast, otherwise co2 was kept the same as it was when dosing EI.

its easy to separate the solutions from NPK FE Etc, but i think people rather use something that is already balanced, nothing goes extra in the tank, it will be all used. its not hard to make each solution separate.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:55 PM   #149
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I don't understand the statement, can you link the post? That plant was stunted when I planted it and showed the progression of it as it grew on the Barr Report. Like I mentioned above, nutrients where the easy part CO2 was a pain in the rear end to get right.



Tobi's idea was to create sort of a "super nitrogen solution", he kept everything separate by design. It was his intention to do so. He didn't keep it separate because he thought it was a bad thing, he wanted control over it. Keeping it separate I believe is the best thing you can do because every tank is different, one tank may need a little of potassium phosphate while another may need it in abundance. Hence the genius of keeping it separate.

Exactly, thus the courtesy of acknowledgements.

Dan
Definitely looks like a logical solution to the problem. I apologize for misunderstanding Tobi.

Now onto a related subject. Today I replaced 2x150 metal halides (over a 50ish gallon tank) with 55W total T5s. I added ~0.25ppm of urea and did not notice any pearling for roughly 2-3 hours. 10-15 minutes after I reinstalled the metal halides pearling was restored. Please note that the baby teas did not pearl previous to urea addition (even with the use of metal halides). So it may seem that the Co2 released from urea hydrolysis can be used by the plants.
Did any one notice a similar result?
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:09 PM   #150
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read post #79

co2 was only increased after plants were already growing fast, otherwise co2 was kept the same as it was when dosing EI.
I found CO2 to be as moody as a woman (no offense ladies) always needing attention.
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its easy to separate the solutions from NPK FE Etc, but i think people rather use something that is already balanced, nothing goes extra in the tank, it will be all used. its not hard to make each solution separate.
Agreed. I prefer to dose everything separately though, I just like the control. Although I did add Urea, Magnesium Nitrate and KNO3 in one bottle when I was experimenting with it with excellent results.

Dan
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