Noob questions! Dirt related. Very important.

[LucyLoofa]

Alright, so I haven't had success at keeping planted tanks long, so I'm no expert. Neither is my "friend" though. We are both lacking in experience in this hobby since we've only been in it for almost 4 years now. (with 2 in PLANTED tanks)

Just got into a huge row with this "friend" on substrate because it seems that while I've been gone from the forum a lot of people here have determined that Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix is not safe for plants or fish in a NEW set up.
AKA
IN A SET UP WHERE THERE IS NO WATER FROM ESTABLISHED TANKS USED OR ANY BENEFICIAL BACTERIA USED AT THE START WHATSOEVER.


I was simply trying to figure out why this was and had a hard time getting any information from them because their patience is tried with every question I attempt to ask.

From what I can gather from their side of the argument (mainly through assumption since attempting communication with them didn't lead to me gathering much) the reason the potting mix is bad is that because the beneficial bacteria are not already there the chicken waste in the soil is just tainting the water some how.
Also from what I gather they've tried setting up tanks with Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix twice and have reliably both times ended up with yellow water that seemed foul to them in some way and prevented the plants from growing. They say that many other users on this site have had the exact same problem and nothing would solve it.

From what I know, though, it seems like this could be prevented through "poking" the substrate to make sure it is supplied with the oxygen that the bacteria in there need to start the cycling process.

I'm just doing guess work here, but their problem sounded like a case of anaerobic soil. If I'm not right on that I don't even care. I didn't even get to mention to them what I though it was so "winning" this argument is what's important to me.


I simply want to know if I can safely use MGOPM in a 3 gallon set up, densely planted. I want to know if it will be safe to introduce fish or shrimp into an environment like that (with chicken waste in the water) and what I can do to avoid this "yellow water/0 plant growth" pit fall that they and apparently other users have encountered. (If it is indeed safe for me to use the MGOPM.

I have been combing the forum and it looks like everyone is still just using the miracle grow organic. So what's the deal?
Safe or not?

I love the tanks I see here. I love fish.
I want something that I can keep up successfully. For once I have a ton of time that I can invest into getting a tank established well for easy maintenance later, so I want to take this chance to go for it. Can't do that with all this witch-hunt paranoia surrounding something that seemed to be a stable rule of nano low tech setups.


ALSO:
The "friend" says Mineralized Top Soil is the way to go, or just plain top soil. I don't see the difference in using the MGOPM and Topsoil other than the volume of matter that will be decomposed by the beneficial bacteria and amount of lasting nutrients in the soil for the plants. Can someone point out to me how regular topsoil is a safe alternative to MGOPM? Should I be using it instead? I honestly don't care if I was wrong or right, but I really need this knowledge to help me build my tank.

THANKS FOR READING!



~Lucy

[DogFish]

In VERY simple terms with MGOP you really don't know the level of Organics in the mix BUT with MTS you have eliminated that factor.

Neither is better just different and the substrate is just part of the whole system. When people bring to analyze a fail they tend to only look at one aspect.

It's always about balance. If you add more origanics you need to compensate with an established filter media and heavy planting. Not unlike high light pretty much demands the use of CO2.

[Soujirou]

Did your friends mention what they capped their soil with? Very little should leech out of the soil if you fill it properly. I believe something must leech out though because when I first put my plants in they started pearling without much light. They stopped several hours later. So i wouldn't add fish/shrimp immediately because of this.

I'd let the soil air out for a day or so to release any pent up gas. I spread mine out on a tarp and turned it with a hand shovel every few hours for 12 hours. It definitely reduced the smell at least.

Seachem Prime could also help since it advertises that it reduces ammonia and nitrite (and nitrate?), which I believe are a concern of using fresh soil in a tank.

[LucyLoofa]

Originally Posted by DogFish

In VERY simple terms with MGOP you really don't know the level of Organics in the mix BUT with MTS you have eliminated that factor.

Neither is better just different and the substrate is just part of the whole system. When people bring to analyze a fail they tend to only look at one aspect.

It's always about balance. If you add more origanics you need to compensate with an established filter media and heavy planting. Not unlike high light pretty much demands the use of CO2.

So the chicken waste isn't actually harmful to the fauna if the beneficial bacteria is allowed to form and take care of it before the fauna is added?

I noticed lots of people who were having success with the potting mix were also using old fish water, so I naturally came to the conclusion that the bacteria were helping things to move along faster.

I am pretty sure then that since so many people are using the mix and have reported success with it with no ill effects to their fish or inverts that the mix is safe for use as long as you know what you're doing.

Maybe it's not the best way to go for a beginner.

Originally Posted by Soujirou

Did your friends mention what they capped their soil with? Very little should leech out of the soil if you fill it properly. I believe something must leech out though because when I first put my plants in they started pearling without much light. They stopped several hours later. So i wouldn't add fish/shrimp immediately because of this.

I'd let the soil air out for a day or so to release any pent up gas. I spread mine out on a tarp and turned it with a hand shovel every few hours for 12 hours. It definitely reduced the smell at least.

Seachem Prime could also help since it advertises that it reduces ammonia and nitrite (and nitrate?), which I believe are a concern of using fresh soil in a tank.

On the first go through I think they used sand and on the second try they used gravel.
Both of us love to use seachem prime because of the very reason you mentioned! It's such a great product. I'll actually need to pick some more up soon.

I hear that the gases leeching out are fine as long as it isn't huge bursts. From what I was told, poking the soil with a long thin stick (for like shish-ka-bobs or something grilling related like toasting marshmallows) at the beginning of a water change (right after the fish are out) helps release the gas in a safe and manageable way during those first water changes you have to make.

Se the problem for both my friend and myself has been that we've had trouble getting cycles established. We've also only been in the hobby for 4 years so we don't have any established material to work from. It's why we were so drawn to planted tanks. We were told in another forum before switching to this one and several others that all we had to do was star a dirt tank with tons of stems and some heavy root feeders with a few malaysian trumpets for soil aeration and we'd have an instantly cycled tank that we could add a fish to the next day.

I took the liberty to research and found out that establishing the bacteria in a soil tank takes a while as well if you aren't starting off with bacteria from elsewhere.

I'm going to conduct some experiments next week. If they go well after 3 months I can hopefully find that "balance". And have some established bacteria I can transfer to larger tanks and continue to cultivate in new environments until I have enough to spread the love around.

[DogFish]

The used tank water has little bacteria but it can add ammonia/nitrates to feed the filter bacteria colony keeping it healthy.Of course little chance of improperly declorinated tap water killinh of the bacteria colony as we reduce the amt of new water.

More bacteria will be introduced on the new plants. Also some plants like diclweed & hpormwort are nutrient mops due to their rapid grpqrg wait.

[JackFu]

MGOPM is fine, but you've got to keep it contained under the cap. It shouldn't discolor your water beyond the first week or two (before fish are added). Just guessing, I'd say that your substrate was too large of a grain (1-2 mm is ideal), too thin, or you disturbed it in some way.

I wouldn't worry about gas or anaerobic pockets at all. You'll get some CO2 bubbles, but it's nothing to be concerned about. Some plants require anaerobic soil to grow roots, seriously.

My first MGOPM tank was a mess, because I didn't know what I was doing. I used too much soil with too fine a cap and made the mistake of moving plants around after it was setup. Avoid those kinds of beginner mistakes, and you'll be fine.

[LucyLoofa]

Originally Posted by DogFish

The used tank water has little bacteria but it can add ammonia/nitrates to feed the filter bacteria colony keeping it healthy.Of course little chance of improperly declorinated tap water killinh of the bacteria colony as we reduce the amt of new water.

More bacteria will be introduced on the new plants. Also some plants like diclweed & hpormwort are nutrient mops due to their rapid grpqrg wait.

Hmmmm. Maybe they didn't let their water sit a day or two after dechlorinating?

This is interesting. I know not dechlorinating properly could harm the fish, but I didn't even think about the bacteria.
Also: I really appreciate you replying to my posts! I know I ask a ton of questions. I'm really happy that you've been so patient with me! So Thank you so much!

Originally Posted by JackFu

MGOPM is fine, but you've got to keep it contained under the cap. It shouldn't discolor your water beyond the first week or two (before fish are added). Just guessing, I'd say that your substrate was too large of a grain (1-2 mm is ideal), too thin, or you disturbed it in some way.

I wouldn't worry about gas or anaerobic pockets at all. You'll get some CO2 bubbles, but it's nothing to be concerned about. Some plants require anaerobic soil to grow roots, seriously.

My first MGOPM tank was a mess, because I didn't know what I was doing. I used too much soil with too fine a cap and made the mistake of moving plants around after it was setup. Avoid those kinds of beginner mistakes, and you'll be fine.

So what was your preferred cap to side step this issue?
Maybe a brand name of like pool filter sand or something I could pick up for us at a lowes or home depot?

Thanks for the reply! You both brought some great key points to my attention!