Genuine Problem here (40 gallon breeder ) any advice ?
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Old 10-29-2014, 07:49 AM   #1
BreedAppistoDieTrying
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Genuine Problem here (40 gallon breeder ) any advice ?


TL;DR : Basically ,what Im trying to figure out is when is it safe for me to turn my hob off and rely solely on my plants to provide oxygen for my fish rather then surface agitation created by HOB filter.

Hello Everyone,
Ok here are the details :
40 gallon breeder tank.
Fluval 206
HOB filter rated for 25 gallons
UV sterilizer that runs at night.

Livestock :
11 fully grown neon tetras
3.5 inch angel
2 inch angel
Black Molly
6 fancy tail guppies
2 albino cory's
1 obese ( AF) bronze cory
2 clown loaches
2 2.5 inch eel loaches
5 inch pleco
1 inch female appisto double red ( -_- waiting on neptune for male)

Fauna : I've Included pictures of every single plant in my tank ( there are not very many ) :
this picture puts everything into perspective its an overall shot of the tank. you can scale the quantity of the java moss ( left bottom corner)

My java Fern ( 6 inch leaves 11 leaves total split between each plant, pearl like madness)


I dont know what this plant is ( ???)


I dont know what this is either :


This is also beyond the info I have ( came with tank when I got it )


I dont know what this is either but it pearls okay


I also dont know what this is called


This is the other kind of moss I purchased with the java, a handful


Okay well now that you know what the ecosystem consists of let me show you this picture here :



What we have here is a straws held together by chopsticks wrapped in plumbers tape to make an airtight floating seal. The purpose of this " barrier" is to increase stagnation and to control the surface agitation caused by the HOB filter. The problem I need advice on is that for my 31 fish , Do I have enough plants that If I completely cut off the surface agitation there will be enough oxygen provided by the plants for my fish to survive ? At this point I believe I NEED the agitation to provide oxygen to my fish. The plants have only been in there for about 4 days . the ones that are potted in the front havent even rooted yet, (they were cuttings) . What do I do ? Im wasting co2 because even though the surface agitation is way way lower due to barrier, There's still oxygen from OUTside going into tank, I'm under the impression that this makes it harder for co2 to diffuse in water ? I have a DIY setup for co2 , which is bubbling 2 bubbles a second 3 hours in after I start a fresh batch and slows down to 1 bubble overnight and stays there til it it runs out. My bubble distribution is no problem, my powehead chops em into micromist and is aimed at a downward angle. Overall what Im trying to figure out is when is it safe for me to turn my hob off and rely solely on my plants to provide oxygen for my fish rather then surface agitation created by HOB filter.


TL;DR : Basically ,what Im trying to figure out is when is it safe for me to turn my hob off and rely solely on my plants to provide oxygen for my fish rather then surface agitation created by HOB filter.
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Old 10-29-2014, 08:31 AM   #2
FatherLandDescendant
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Quote:
Livestock :
11 fully grown neon tetras
3.5 inch angel
2 inch angel
Black Molly
6 fancy tail guppies
2 albino cory's
1 obese ( AF) bronze cory
2 clown loaches
2 2.5 inch eel loaches
5 inch pleco
1 inch female appisto double red
First off IMO a 40b is to small height wise for angels, not to mention the fact that when you keep angels you need to start with either a mated pair OR 5 to 6 until they pair off. The situation you've set up with just putting in two could (and most likely will) lead to agression issues where one will beat the crap out of the other, and that is exactly what happened with the 2 I put in my 40b some years back. Also with angels when they get older (thus bigger) they will eat your neons and any guppy fry that may develope if you have a female guppy as part of your collection.

Also you say your waiting on another triple red, male to go with your female, you hopeing they'll breed? If they do the angels will eat the fry when they become free swiming, that is if the pelco or corey doesn't get to the eggs first...

Speaking of the pelco, what type of pelco do you have (L ???), many pelcos get to 12 to 18 inches, half the length of your tank.

Coreys should be kept in schools of 6 or more.

Now to your question AND in consideration to the ADULT size of the fish in your tank I question weather you'd ever be able to stop surface aggitation, I wouldn't be supprised if you had to add an air stone and pump in the near future to keep your fish from suffocating. Your tank is over stocked as it sits and you don't have the plant mass to support the bio-load from an O2 stand point, you could however stop the DIY CO2 and with as many fish as you have the plants would get more than enough CO2 from them.

Even using the 1" per gallon rule (which is a rough substandard guadaging system) one should consider the adult size of their fish, angels 6" (x2= 12 gal) triple reds 3" (you want a second so x2= 6gal) neons 1" (x11= 22 gal) there is your 40 gal mark... Add the guppies @ 1.5" (x6= 9gal), molley 2" (= 2 gal), clown loaches 3" (x2= 6gal), don't know about the eel loaches, or corey adult sizes, and the pelco even if it's a bristle nose at 6" (= 6gal) there's another 23gal +

Of course with the over stock you could plant heavier, ditch the CO2, no ferts and do a Walstad style tank
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Old 10-29-2014, 02:52 PM   #3
Knotyoureality
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As for the plant id's...

The first picture is, indeed a java fern.
The second is a rosette sword--not sure of the variety, but there's not much
difference in the care requirements for most. Looks like you've got it tied to
a rock? If so, wrong idea. It needs to be planted in the substrate.
The third is also java fern.
The fourth are anubias--like the java fern, their rhizomes need to be kept
above the level of the substrate or they'll rot.
The fifth is a hygrophila. Will leave it up to someone more versed in the
different varieties to attempt id the exact type--but most have very similar
care requirements.
The last picture is susswassertang, aka round pelia.
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Old 10-29-2014, 03:10 PM   #4
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Add a canister filter with 250 gph rating minimum,and you could ditch the HOB.
Would take some media from the HOB before I removed it and stuff it in the new canister should you decide to go that way.
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Old 10-30-2014, 12:32 AM   #5
BreedAppistoDieTrying
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Hey man thanks so much for replying , every single word was helpful. My big angel was Hugely aggressive to my smaller angel first two days, now they exist peacefully. Still , Im selling it on craigslist, your right, its too big for the tank now. thanks for the suggestion, I like the idea of the "walstad" tank.

Last edited by BreedAppistoDieTrying; 10-30-2014 at 12:34 AM.. Reason: This message directed at fatherland , lol still getting used to forum layout
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Old 10-30-2014, 12:44 AM   #6
BreedAppistoDieTrying
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knotyoureality View Post
As for the plant id's...

The first picture is, indeed a java fern.
The second is a rosette sword--not sure of the variety, but there's not much
difference in the care requirements for most. Looks like you've got it tied to
a rock? If so, wrong idea. It needs to be planted in the substrate.
The third is also java fern.
The fourth are anubias--like the java fern, their rhizomes need to be kept
above the level of the substrate or they'll rot.
The fifth is a hygrophila. Will leave it up to someone more versed in the
different varieties to attempt id the exact type--but most have very similar
care requirements.
The last picture is susswassertang, aka round pelia.
Are you sure the third one is java fern ? it's soo small and it doesnt grow at all , its been that size for almost a year.
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Old 10-30-2014, 08:34 PM   #7
Higher Thinking
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatherLandDescendant View Post
First off IMO a 40b is to small height wise for angels, not to mention the fact that when you keep angels you need to start with either a mated pair OR 5 to 6 until they pair off. The situation you've set up with just putting in two could (and most likely will) lead to agression issues where one will beat the crap out of the other, and that is exactly what happened with the 2 I put in my 40b some years back. Also with angels when they get older (thus bigger) they will eat your neons and any guppy fry that may develope if you have a female guppy as part of your collection.

Also you say your waiting on another triple red, male to go with your female, you hopeing they'll breed? If they do the angels will eat the fry when they become free swiming, that is if the pelco or corey doesn't get to the eggs first...

Speaking of the pelco, what type of pelco do you have (L ???), many pelcos get to 12 to 18 inches, half the length of your tank.

Coreys should be kept in schools of 6 or more.

Now to your question AND in consideration to the ADULT size of the fish in your tank I question weather you'd ever be able to stop surface aggitation, I wouldn't be supprised if you had to add an air stone and pump in the near future to keep your fish from suffocating. Your tank is over stocked as it sits and you don't have the plant mass to support the bio-load from an O2 stand point, you could however stop the DIY CO2 and with as many fish as you have the plants would get more than enough CO2 from them.

Even using the 1" per gallon rule (which is a rough substandard guadaging system) one should consider the adult size of their fish, angels 6" (x2= 12 gal) triple reds 3" (you want a second so x2= 6gal) neons 1" (x11= 22 gal) there is your 40 gal mark... Add the guppies @ 1.5" (x6= 9gal), molley 2" (= 2 gal), clown loaches 3" (x2= 6gal), don't know about the eel loaches, or corey adult sizes, and the pelco even if it's a bristle nose at 6" (= 6gal) there's another 23gal +

Of course with the over stock you could plant heavier, ditch the CO2, no ferts and do a Walstad style tank
Some good info, but be careful with the inch per gallon rule. It doesn't really hold much value when considering territorial issues, waste production, filtration, and what not.

Also, it's pleco, not pelco. Like plecostomus.
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Old 10-31-2014, 06:18 AM   #8
FatherLandDescendant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higher Thinking View Post
Some good info, but be careful with the inch per gallon rule. It doesn't really hold much value when considering territorial issues, waste production, filtration, and what not.
That's why I termed it a "rough substandard guadaging system"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Higher Thinking View Post
Also, it's pleco, not pelco. Like plecostomus.
Yea my spelling is quite lacking It has to do with the way I was tought to read, the wonderful results of the public edumacatation system

I typed that post at work and the computers web browsers here do not have spell check so I get missspelled words more here than I do at home on my computer, that's how one can tell if I was at work or home when one reads my posts.

Hey he misspelled that... Oh he must have been at work
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