Is EI dosing of chelated trace safe for sensitive inverts?

[Sachababs]

So I have nerites and amanos. I wanted to start dosing with either this
http://www.plantedtanks.co.uk/tff-fe...mix-1675-p.asp
or this
http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/f...stomer-reviews
with the second one I could dictate the amount of chelated trace that I put in. I'm not worried about the macro dosing, but I see the chelated trace has around 0.3% copper. This strikes me as quite a lot. Seachem flourish has 0.00001 if I remember correctly, which seems much safer than the chelated trace amount.
Does anyone have experience specifically with using the EDTA chelated trace, or the TFF fertiliser mix with Nerites?
Many thanks.

[Aquaticfan]

I dont use either of those sellers as ive gotten mine from sellers here on the board and other places But its all basically the same stuff.

I dose the following

Micro
Plantx csm+b or Millers Microplex (for the trace/micro elements)
Fe Iron Chelate 11% DTPA

Macro
Potassium Nitrate KNO3
Potassium Sulfate K2SO4
Mono Potassium Phosphate KH2PO4

As well as I dose the recommended amount of Seachem Excel. and injected Co2

I have Amano shrimp, Cherry shrimp, Nerites of different types, and Malaysian trumpet snails. No issues what so ever with any of it or the live stock. You shouldnt have any issues.

[Sachababs]

Awesome- thanks very much for the reply.
There are plenty of people here saying that, but at the same time there are plenty of people who had invert deaths it would be useful to hear from someone who had had problems using this, and to try and see why this happened...
Why no magnesium sulphate in your macro mix?

[Aquaticfan]

No need for the mg sulphate as our water is hard and doesn't need it.

Really for those that have had issues like invert deaths as you mentioned, I would be willing to bet they had other issues that caused the deaths and it wasn't the ferts that did it. Co2 to high or something. I see to many people use it along with myself in several tanks with shrimp and snails with no issues.

[Sachababs]

Cool sounds good. I have very hard water too, so should I halve the amount of mg sulphate in my mix? Also, the particular one I'm looking at doesn't come with potassium sulphate... will it be very much missed?
Also, is the weekly 50% water change really necessary?
This wouldn't be good for my inverts and it's not very practical. If I dose half the recommended doses, could I get away with 25% changes?

[robbowal]

Sachababs
To answer your question if you half dose you will need to reduce your lighting (easiest is to raise the fixture by a few inches) then you could do 25-30%, it also depends on the amount of plants you have as well.
Did you look over the Fluidsensor range.
If you want the control i think you do,it may be better for you to dry dose as you can adjust individual chemical amounts.
fluidsensor sell the chemicals individually and also have the small dosing spoons.
from what i can see they supply the others with chemicals.
if you want dosing levels let me know and i can try help you out.
i do understand it is a lot to get to grips with but it is not very hard just take a little research (as there are a lot of conflicting bits of info).
if you dry dose you can tailor it to you needs better than the premixed options.
but as i mentioned the main thing is consistency in the dosing (it takes time to see the changes)

[Aquaticfan]

Originally Posted by Sachababs

Cool sounds good. I have very hard water too, so should I halve the amount of mg sulphate in my mix? Also, the particular one I'm looking at doesn't come with potassium sulphate... will it be very much missed?
Also, is the weekly 50% water change really necessary?
This wouldn't be good for my inverts and it's not very practical. If I dose half the recommended doses, could I get away with 25% changes?

What inverts do you plan on keeping? I do 50 % water changes weekly mine are fine and never have issues. The potassium is used so the plants will uptake phosphate. I think your overthinking to much on this.

[Mr. Fish]

Originally Posted by Aquaticfan

No need for the mg sulphate as our water is hard and doesn't need it.

Really for those that have had issues like invert deaths as you mentioned, I would be willing to bet they had other issues that caused the deaths and it wasn't the ferts that did it. Co2 to high or something. I see to many people use it along with myself in several tanks with shrimp and snails with no issues.

Aquatic fan you say you don't dose Sulfate due to your water being hard already but your post above you state you dose K2S04 Sulfate? I'm not following

[Aquaticfan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Fish

Aquatic fan you say you don't dose Sulfate due to your water being hard already but your post above you state you dose K2S04 Sulfate? I'm not following

I said I don't use. Mg sulfate. Not just sulfate. I was asked about magnesium thus I abbreviated mg.

[elwray]

Originally Posted by Mr. Fish

Aquatic fan you say you don't dose Sulfate due to your water being hard already but your post above you state you dose K2S04 Sulfate? I'm not following

I believe aquaticfan was referring to Magnesium sulfate, not potassium sulfate - Mg will raise the water hardness.

EDIT: beat me by a minute...

[Mr. Fish]

To my understanding K2SO4 raises the hardness aswell. Not just mg sulfate.

[nokturnalkid]

K2so4 raises the tds like all other ferts. Dosing ca and mg raises the gh.

[Mr. Fish]

Guess I was told wrong then.

But anyways K2SO4 is not required for dosing unless you need the extra Potassium. This K is found in KN03 and KH2P04.

[Aquaticfan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Fish

Guess I was told wrong then.

But anyways K2SO4 is not required for dosing unless you need the extra Potassium. This K is found in KN03 and KH2P04.

If dosing EI you still can dose it with no ill effects. Providing non limiting nutrients for the plants to uptake is all your doing and livestock have no issues with it either. The potassium is added I believe to help plants with uptake of phosphates. The question would be is there enough k being dosed with what's in kno3 or kh2po4? It's never tested for and even at that demand for nutrients do vary all the time. I've always gone ahead and dosed k and gotten god results along with kno3 and kh2po4. I also dose micro and some Fe along with excel. I've got several different nerites cherry shrimps and a bunch of amano shrimps with no issues. Some tanks are dose co2 some not.

[elwray]

Originally Posted by Aquaticfan

If dosing EI you still can dose it with no ill effects. Providing non limiting nutrients for the plants to uptake is all your doing and livestock have no issues with it either. The potassium is added I believe to help plants with uptake of phosphates. The question would be is there enough k being dosed with what's in kno3 or kh2po4? It's never tested for and even at that demand for nutrients do vary all the time. I've always gone ahead and dosed k and gotten god results along with kno3 and kh2po4. I also dose micro and some Fe along with excel. I've got several different nerites cherry shrimps and a bunch of amano shrimps with no issues. Some tanks are dose co2 some not.

Great way to put it! That's essentially what the estimative index (EI) dosing is all about! You're providing these essential nutrients, actually in overabundance, so the plants are never left wanting for more. Given appropriate water changes, the EI method aims to leave a little bit more "on the table" without having so much excess that it harms either plants or livestock. Even the CO2 is supposed to be "overdosed" relative to the demand from the plants - but obviously without entering the danger zone and suffocating livestock. Well, at least that's the way I learned it