Riddle me this... Large Amano die off...
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:28 AM   #1
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Riddle me this... Large Amano die off...


So... Picture it... Tuesday afternoon a box arrives and it's packed with a school of 30 amano shrimp and 10 coral red pencilfish from Rachel.

1. I acclimate and get the critters into my tank. Everything seems okay...

EDIT: The acclimation happened before the CO2 and lights came on for the day - I prevented both from coming on for a few hours after the fish and shrimp were introduced.

2. An hour later I saw an angel hunt an amano, didn't catch it... Not a good sign but I am selling the pair of angels this weekend. The coral reds, like the cardinal tetra are left alone. I sigh relief.

3. This morning before the lights and CO2 came on I found 9 dead shrimp, mostly whole untouched. The coral reds along with the cardinal tetra were near the surface. I examined the tank and there were two amano grazing on algae on a Crypt balansae near the surface.

Thinking it was lack of O2 I moved the lily pipe up to break the water's surface to drive some air into the tank.

4. I then checked the water conditions:
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 20 (considering I had 9 decomposing shrimp this isn't surprising)
KH 4
pH 6.6
Edit: Dropchecker was deep green. When the CO2 comes on it becomes a lighter green.

I would believe low O2 but the corys, otos, angels, and apistos were swimming around normally.

5. As a precaution I did a 50% water change.

Everything was well..

6. I got back this afternoon and there were 6 more dead amano mostly whole and untouched. The rest of the fish are acting normally... :shock:

The only things that go into my tank are:
DC's *cough* finest *cough* tap water
Seachem Prime (with water changes)
Seachem Flourish Iron, 5ml every other day
Seachem Flourish 5ml, 3x a week
Seachem Excel 10ml/daily (reduction of algae)
Green Leaf Aquariums NPK ferts PPI dosing 5ml daily
Petco Frozen blood worms
Driftwood
Slate tile buried in the substrate
A few quartz rocks
UP Aquasoil
Stainless steel screws (holding the driftwood together and to the slate tile)


I would love to have amano cleaning crew but something is killing them and I can't figure out why.

Could there be copper in my tap water? It's an old house but I think the pipes have been updated.

Help...
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:30 AM   #2
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How did you acclimate them?

Edit: If you already had high levels of Co2 while you added the amanos, they could be dying from Co2 shock
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:32 AM   #3
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Sounds an awful lot like copper to me.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:35 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkan0228 View Post
How did you acclimate them?

Edit: If you already had high levels of Co2 while you added the amanos, they could be dying from Co2 shock
The way I do for all my fish:

Float the bag

A few drops of Prime in the bag using a syringe to bind the ammonia and nitrites.

Pour a shot glass of water into the bag 3x over 10 minutes.

get a bucket and pour the water over a net into the bucket catching the shrimp

dump shrimp into tank.

The coral red pencil fish, and all of my other fish have this method.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:39 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkan0228 View Post
How did you acclimate them?

Edit: If you already had high levels of Co2 while you added the amanos, they could be dying from Co2 shock

+1

I think poor acclimation or CO2 shock are both potential reason... while copper is possible I would say at levels that would of killed that many shrimp, unlikely, at least without killing them all.

If you order more Amanos in the future I would make sure to drip acclimate them and also kill the CO2 for at least 3-4 days before you introduce the Amanos. Then slowly over the next 1-2 weeks ramp the CO2 back up.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:41 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkan0228 View Post
How did you acclimate them?

Edit: If you already had high levels of Co2 while you added the amanos, they could be dying from Co2 shock
I would consider high CO2 but the shrimp/fish were added when the CO2/lights had been on for a while. I have calibrated the CO2 with 1.5bps - the drop checker and pH/KH calculation shows acceptable CO2.

The coral reds acclimated as well.

Finally, none of the other fish acted weird. They ate when the lights came on and swam around normally.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:41 AM   #7
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Pick up a copper test kit ASAP. If you're gonna keep shrimp, might as well have one.

You're going to have a lot of people say yes/no to Excel but that could also be the culprit.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:42 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeblood View Post
+1

I think poor acclimation or CO2 shock are both potential reason... while copper is possible I would say at levels that would of killed that many shrimp, unlikely, at least without killing them all.

If you order more Amanos in the future I would make sure to drip acclimate them and also kill the CO2 for at least 3-4 days before you introduce the Amanos. Then slowly over the next 1-2 weeks ramp the CO2 back up.
I appreciate the advice, but I'm following Rachel's recommendations for acclimation. I have never drip acclimated and I haven't ever lost a fish.

High CO2 is unlikely.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundragon View Post
The way I do for all my fish:

Float the bag

A few drops of Prime in the bag using a syringe to bind the ammonia and nitrites.

Pour a shot glass of water into the bag 3x over 10 minutes.

get a bucket and pour the water over a net into the bucket catching the shrimp

dump shrimp into tank.

The coral red pencil fish, and all of my other fish have this method.

While fine for fish, this is not how you acclimate shrimp, certainly not if your water parameters are drastically different. Drip acclimation should be used for all shrimp unless you test the water (for gh, kh, tds and ph) and it is practically identical.

something like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1A5wsYKzIU
or
http://www.planetinverts.com/Acclima...%20Shrimp.html
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:42 AM   #10
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Pick up a copper test kit ASAP. If you're gonna keep shrimp, might as well have one.

You're going to have a lot of people say yes/no to Excel but that could also be the culprit.
I have a copper kit on order to arrive soon. The excel shouldn't kill shrimp at that dose in a 57 gallon tank. It's far from the max dose.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:44 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundragon View Post
The way I do for all my fish:

Float the bag

A few drops of Prime in the bag using a syringe to bind the ammonia and nitrites.

Pour a shot glass of water into the bag 3x over 10 minutes.

get a bucket and pour the water over a net into the bucket catching the shrimp

dump shrimp into tank.

The coral red pencil fish, and all of my other fish have this method.
Rachel wrote an article on acclimating fish and inverts.

Her methods were:
Open bag, few drops of prime, take livestock out via net and plop into tank.

When you float it, you're accelerating their metabolism when it's already been pretty low with the low temps. When their metabolism increases so suddenly, they start to hyperventilate, thus suffocating in the bag. Unless you have surface agitation in the bag, there won't be much O2 in the bag.

You also added the water too quickly. Rachel recommends if you do acclimation, use the drip method over several hours.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:44 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeblood View Post
While fine for fish, this is not how you acclimate shrimp, certainly not if your water parameters are drastically different. Drip acclimation should be used for all shrimp unless you test the water (for gh, kh, tds and ph) and it is practically identical.

something like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1A5wsYKzIU
or
http://www.planetinverts.com/Acclima...%20Shrimp.html
From the source of the shrimp: http://msjinkzd.com/news/acclimating...heir-new-tank/

Please send me a doc that states drip acclimation - I've honestly never used it.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:45 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundragon View Post
I appreciate the advice, but I'm following Rachel's recommendations for acclimation. I have never drip acclimated and I haven't ever lost a fish.

High CO2 is unlikely.
I don't know who Rachel is but acclimating shrimp over a 10 minute time period often will have the exact results you are experiencing, you will probably lose a couple more tonight and then whatever survives after 3 days will probably be okay.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:45 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundragon View Post
From the source of the shrimp: http://msjinkzd.com/news/acclimating...heir-new-tank/

Please send me a doc that states drip acclimation - I've honestly never used it.
"To drip acclimate, simply add the fish to the holding container with enough shipping water to cover it (be sure you added the dechlorinator/ammonia binder). Then take your airline and start a siphon from your quarantine tank. Next you tie a knot (or use a two-way adjustable air valve) in the airline to provide a slow drip into the holding container. This allows for gradual increase of temperature, and a more gradual change of total dissolved solids."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeblood View Post
I don't know who Rachel is but acclimating shrimp over a 10 minute time period often will have the exact results you are experiencing, you will probably lose a couple more tonight and then whatever survives after 3 days will probably be okay.

Rachel is Msjinkzd
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkan0228 View Post
Rachel wrote an article on acclimating fish and inverts.

Her methods were:
Open bag, few drops of prime, take livestock out via net and plop into tank.

When you float it, you're accelerating their metabolism when it's already been pretty low with the low temps. When their metabolism increases so suddenly, they start to hyperventilate, thus suffocating in the bag. Unless you have surface agitation in the bag, there won't be much O2 in the bag.

You also added the water too quickly. Rachel recommends if you do acclimation, use the drip method over several hours.
That would kill the shrimp over 24 hours? Why not immediately? why not the coral reds?

I have a hard time believing that adding 3 shot glasses of water over 10 minutes wouldn't shock shrimp and kill them 24 hours later.
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