Sump build advice needed

[audioaficionado]

I'm looking at a large 125-180 gal planted tank.
I'm thinking a 30G tall glass tank should = a DIY CPR CR2000 Wet/Dry Filter sump.
Looking at the CS102 overflow siphon 1200 GPH.
Need a submersible pump ~1200gph @ 6' head.

Overkill?
Suggestions on all aspects of this project welcome.

[galabar]

Originally Posted by audioaficionado

I'm looking at a large 125-180 gal planted tank.
I'm thinking a 30G tall glass tank should = a DIY CPR CR2000 Wet/Dry Filter sump.
Looking at the CS102 overflow siphon 1200 GPH.
Need a submersible pump ~1200gph @ 6' head.

Overkill?
Suggestions on all aspects of this project welcome.

I might go with 2 canister filters instead. There isn't too much benefit to sumps for planted tanks. Sure, you can hide your heater down there, but not much else. On a reef, of course, there are lots of nice things to do with a sump.

[GeToChKn]

Originally Posted by galabar

I might go with 2 canister filters instead. There isn't too much benefit to sumps for planted tanks. Sure, you can hide your heater down there, but not much else. On a reef, of course, there are lots of nice things to do with a sump.

Who's to say you can't grow moss, floaters, breed shrimp, snails in a FW sump?

2 canisters = 4 tubes coming into a tank. Overflow/sump, everything can be hidden behind corner boxes.

30 sump = ~20 more gallons of water space, which adds to water stability, places to grow/breed stuff.

Lots of people can do CO2 fine with a sump if it's designed properly.

Find me 2 canisters that will 1200gph at 6' head height turnover or give 10-15 gallons of available bio-media.

Can setup auto-dosing ferts right into the sump, good dispersal into the tank.

Need to clean sponges or bio-media? No need to unplug power from canisters, unhook tubes, bring filter to bathroom/outside/etc, and repeat x2 for 2 canisters.

Top offs, open the door, dump water in, done. No disturbing substrate, uprooting plants.

...etc



I say go for it. My sump tank isn't planted, but after having 2 turtles in 2 tanks and 4 canisters and now having a sump for them in 1 tank, I'd never go back for a bigger tank. 2 turtles are messy and hell and I'd have clogged filters every other week. Now I top off, change water (which I use the return lines for and can pump 30gals out my window into my front lawn in about 3 mins.)

As for pumps, the Danner Mag Drive 18 will do 1125gph at 6' head height. I have the 12 and have 2 returns, that run through a T (which slows down flow) and I still need 2 ball valves on each return dialed down to keep flow down.

http://www.marinedepot.com/powerhead...upreme-ap.html

If you're buying a new tank, I would look at getting it drilled and go that way instead of an overflow box.

[audioaficionado]

@ Dr F&S it's $310 so far:
*Supreme Classic Mag Drive Pump 1800 (MD18) $144.49
*CPR Continuous Siphon Overflow Aqua Lifter Pump $14.99
*CPR Continuous Siphon Overflow 1" Double Bulkhead, 1200 gph (mfg #CS102NEW) $149.99

A CPR CR2000 wet/dry is another $260 or so I have to go with an used 30 gal CL tank + DIY.

Marineland standard 125 gal tank is ~$350 new or 180 gal ~>$800 new.

DIY stand + DIY lights + 9x9L bags ADA AS-new + hardscape + lots of plants & fish >$600

Since this is a FW tank it's lots less expensive than a SW tank LOL.

There is a 200 gal CL SW tank with all the other equipment for $750. A bargain in comparison if it's all still good.

But it looks like I could put the sump system together for $400 or so.

OTOH I can save a lot by getting a tank with standard corner overflows without incurring a customization charge and only need the sump & pump. I don't think those predrilled tanks are much more than an undrilled one new. Don't care much for the center overflows.

[DaveK]

I noticed your looking at CPR overflows. After using one on my reef system, I found that they have multiple design defects that sooner or later will cause a flood. I was "blessed" with several big floods with mine.

The problems I found were as follows -

The wide U tube siphon can not be removed or easily be cleaned, so it tends to clog. Snails and such also like to go up into the siphon clogging it. This can easily cause a flood.

The siphon will also collect air bubbles. That's why you need that Aqua Lifter pump. However, the small hole in the siphon you connect the pump to can easily clog. Once that happens, it's just a question of time until you get a siphon break and a flood.

I would recommend that you avoid CPR overflows at all costs. If your going to use this sort of external overflow, get something that uses normal round U tube siphons. They can at least be removed and cleaned and will not trap air, even when used without an Aqua Lifter pump. You will get a bigger box insider that tank, but it's a lot less likely to flood. Eshops makes overflows of this design. Lifereef also makes them, but they are online only and a bit expensive. This is what I currently use.

Better still is to either get a "reef ready tank" with built in overflows, or drill the tank and install bulkhead fittings or a stand pipe. There are a lot of ways to go here, so some research will need to be done to pick the type you want.

A DIY sump is easy to make. Just take your time, and make sure that the return pump area is large enough. Before you "officially" set up the system, fill it with just water, and run the filtration system a few days. This will let you check for leaks or areas of the sump that need to be made larger or smaller.

The Mag pump your looking at will be fine.

Assuming that the 180 gal tank your looking at is 24" wide rather than 18" like the typical 125", you got a tough choice. Do you want the lower cost tank, or do you want that 24" which can make a fantastic aquascape. That larger tank makes everything else cost more too. Tough call.

[audioaficionado]

Thanx for the CPR CS tip.

I've found that the cost of the tank is only a third to a fourth the total cost of a new setup unless you get into Starphire rimless tanks.

I'd really love that 24" depth, but I think I'll be happy with the 125 for a couple of years at least.

[HD Blazingwolf]

Wow giid to know. So far i love my cpr. And so far no snail or debris issues. Mine is kept primed by gravity siphon right now

Audio when more time is present ill post some ideas

[Craigthor]

Originally Posted by audioaficionado

Thanx for the CPR CS tip.

I've found that the cost of the tank is only a third to a fourth the total cost of a new setup unless you get into Starphire rimless tanks.

I'd really love that 24" depth, but I think I'll be happy with the 125 for a couple of years at least.

Honestly if you can get the 180 now go for it. I got a 150 2 years ago and just moved to a 220. You can't believe what that extra 6" can do for viewing. Invest a bit more now and you will be satisfied for a long time to come.

Craig

[galabar]

Originally Posted by GeToChKn

Who's to say you can't grow moss, floaters, breed shrimp, snails in a FW sump?

2 canisters = 4 tubes coming into a tank. Overflow/sump, everything can be hidden behind corner boxes.

30 sump = ~20 more gallons of water space, which adds to water stability, places to grow/breed stuff.

Lots of people can do CO2 fine with a sump if it's designed properly.

Find me 2 canisters that will 1200gph at 6' head height turnover or give 10-15 gallons of available bio-media.

Can setup auto-dosing ferts right into the sump, good dispersal into the tank.

Need to clean sponges or bio-media? No need to unplug power from canisters, unhook tubes, bring filter to bathroom/outside/etc, and repeat x2 for 2 canisters.

Top offs, open the door, dump water in, done. No disturbing substrate, uprooting plants.

...etc



I say go for it. My sump tank isn't planted, but after having 2 turtles in 2 tanks and 4 canisters and now having a sump for them in 1 tank, I'd never go back for a bigger tank. 2 turtles are messy and hell and I'd have clogged filters every other week. Now I top off, change water (which I use the return lines for and can pump 30gals out my window into my front lawn in about 3 mins.)

As for pumps, the Danner Mag Drive 18 will do 1125gph at 6' head height. I have the 12 and have 2 returns, that run through a T (which slows down flow) and I still need 2 ball valves on each return dialed down to keep flow down.

http://www.marinedepot.com/powerhead...upreme-ap.html

If you're buying a new tank, I would look at getting it drilled and go that way instead of an overflow box.

Of course, all of this is opinion, but I will share mine.

I would prefer to have two discrete input tubes and two returns as opposed to corner overflows. In addition, any closed loop system, like a caniste,r is going to have an advantage here -- you can drill the tank and use bulkheads with low profile grates. This becomes almost invisible and takes up much less space than overflows.

With overflows, you are going to lose a lot of CO2. The operation of an overflow will cause a substantial amount of gas off. You could be looking at a 20x difference (I've seen greater differences based on a variety of parameters). I would much rather fill that 10 lb CO2 cylinder once every 20 months rather than once a month. That alone, would push me away from a sump.

As for growing things in your sump, meh. If you want to have shrimp, put them in a display tank. As for additional space for water stability, again, Meh. You don't need it. The tank itself will contain plenty of plant life, enough to handle any excess nitrogen coming from your critters, and the tank is large enough that stability is just not an issue.

As for flow, you just don't need that much. Two canister filters will give you around 900 gph to 1000 gph (Rena XP4, for example). That is plenty, overkill, really for that tank.

For cleaning filter media, this mostly involves rinse sponges and maybe changing filter floss. I would much rather do this at my utility sink than in my living room near my carpet. So, being able to quickly detach the canister from the system and carry it to the sink, without mess, is a big plus.

For fertilizers, you can still have automated systems that inject directly into the tank as well as auto-top-off systems. However, this might be the once place where a sump has a slight advantage as you don't need to bring any tubing up the back of the aquarium.

So, there you go. My opinions on each of your opinions (I hope you can see them as such).

Oh, wait, I forgot the worst part about overflows -- the noise, oh the noise, noise, noise, noise (Ok, I stole that from Dr. Seuss). Unless you get fairly sophisticated, those overflows are going to be noises. The canisters will be silent or almost silent.

My opinion: sumps for planted tanks with fish -- not needed.

Wait, I forgot one more thing -- the almost guaranteed failure of the overflow if you use a siphon tube rather than drilling (I will never, ever do that again!).

[galabar]

Originally Posted by DaveK

I noticed your looking at CPR overflows. After using one on my reef system, I found that they have multiple design defects that sooner or later will cause a flood. I was "blessed" with several big floods with mine.

The problems I found were as follows -

The wide U tube siphon can not be removed or easily be cleaned, so it tends to clog. Snails and such also like to go up into the siphon clogging it. This can easily cause a flood.

The siphon will also collect air bubbles. That's why you need that Aqua Lifter pump. However, the small hole in the siphon you connect the pump to can easily clog. Once that happens, it's just a question of time until you get a siphon break and a flood.

I would recommend that you avoid CPR overflows at all costs. If your going to use this sort of external overflow, get something that uses normal round U tube siphons. They can at least be removed and cleaned and will not trap air, even when used without an Aqua Lifter pump. You will get a bigger box insider that tank, but it's a lot less likely to flood. Eshops makes overflows of this design. Lifereef also makes them, but they are online only and a bit expensive. This is what I currently use.

Better still is to either get a "reef ready tank" with built in overflows, or drill the tank and install bulkhead fittings or a stand pipe. There are a lot of ways to go here, so some research will need to be done to pick the type you want.

A DIY sump is easy to make. Just take your time, and make sure that the return pump area is large enough. Before you "officially" set up the system, fill it with just water, and run the filtration system a few days. This will let you check for leaks or areas of the sump that need to be made larger or smaller.

The Mag pump your looking at will be fine.

Assuming that the 180 gal tank your looking at is 24" wide rather than 18" like the typical 125", you got a tough choice. Do you want the lower cost tank, or do you want that 24" which can make a fantastic aquascape. That larger tank makes everything else cost more too. Tough call.

I would double down on this advice. Just don't use the siphon overflow method. I've had and read of way too many catastrophic failures.

Either drill for the overflow (possible pre-made with the tank), use a canister filter, or drill bulkheads for the canister filter.

You'll regret using siphon tubes on an overflow. You will regret it by exactly the amount of water your sump holds.

[GeToChKn]

Originally Posted by galabar

So, there you go. My opinions on each of your opinions (I hope you can see them as such).

Oh, wait, I forgot the worst part about overflows -- the noise, oh the noise, noise, noise, noise (Ok, I stole that from Dr. Seuss). Unless you get fairly sophisticated, those overflows are going to be noises. The canisters will be silent or almost silent.

My opinion: sumps for planted tanks with fish -- not needed.

Wait, I forgot one more thing -- the almost guaranteed failure of the overflow if you use a siphon tube rather than drilling (I will never, ever do that again!).

Agreed. There is points for both sides of it. I'll have to take a video of mine though so you can (not) hear the noise of a my system.



Either way OP, I'd go drilled and not a overflow box if you go the sump route. As you can see, there is lots of points to do it either way. I've not tried CO2 with a sump, so hard to say how easy it is to get a proper system although lots seem like it's possible if you plan on going high-tech with it.

[Kathyy]

Agree with Craigthor, get the deeper tank. I only have 18" because I am super cheap and they are easier to find on CL.

The pump on my 180 gallon long is only ~350gph @4' because my overflow box at the time couldn't handle the flow. May upgrade to more next pump. More is better as long as it is a quiet enough pump. Do consider the power consumption though, it varies widely!

I have been using a Utube overflow sump for a decade and dream about a drilled tank. Sure you have that ugly box top to bottom but is a skimmer box just at the top really less obtrusive? I see reefing type tanks with large boxes at one side, I think that is what I would like if I ever get another tank.

My Herbie overflow is silent save for some pump hum and it is certainly not a difficult method to implement though it and the Beananimal are elegant solutions to be sure. Whether you go drilled or HOB do get a double or triple drain so you can use one or the other.

I hope to be able to continue using sumps on my tanks. Nobody mentioned the constant water level and higher level of oxygenation.

All my floods have been minor mostly due to that U tube being empty during water changes. You do need to keep the skimmer teeth cleaned off too. If the siphon is provided enough water flow it won't retain bubbles, they blow right through.

[audioaficionado]

Last year Craig's List had tons of large tanks for cheap. Not so much this year

Kathyy I really want the 180, but I don't know where I'd put it in my house.

I know that a 75 would drive me nuts with buyer's remorse within the first few months of getting it so I thought a 125 would satisfy me at least a couple more years until I could swing a 5'x3'x2' Starphire deep dimension tank.

[galabar]

Originally Posted by Kathyy

All my floods have been minor

p.s. I shall endeaver never again to walk on wet carpet. Drill, baby, drill!

[DaveK]

Originally Posted by galabar

I would double down on this advice. Just don't use the siphon overflow method. I've had and read of way too many catastrophic failures.

Either drill for the overflow (possible pre-made with the tank), use a canister filter, or drill bulkheads for the canister filter.

You'll regret using siphon tubes on an overflow. You will regret it by exactly the amount of water your sump holds.

I believe most of the issues coming from the use of siphon overflows come from people using ones such as the CPR overflows, which in my opinion have inherent design defects. If you use a quality siphon overflow, you will seldom, if ever, have a flood due to the overflow. Of course, you still have all the possible flooding issues that can occur because you use a sump, such as the return back siphoning during a power failure, or something blocking the overflow.

Like anything else, it depends on the quality of the original design. There are some good and a lot of bad stuff out there.