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Old 03-22-2012, 08:33 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Francis Xavier View Post
Green Bacter is a combination of dormant bacteria cultures and a type of mulm which is a food source for the beneficial bacteria. I don't know what names of the bacteria that are in there, but the primary ones are the bacteria directly responsible for the nitrogen cycle (ammonia - nitrite - nitrate etc.), the others are those which are synergistic with plant roots, etc.

It's used 1) to help cycle the aquarium quicker, 2) to help bacteria recover after water changes and filter cleanings (long periods of time, of up to 30 minutes with a filter turned off is disastrous to the beneficial bacteria)
.
And it smells good too! Something like a good hickory fire.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:03 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Francis Xavier View Post
Green Bacter is a combination of dormant bacteria cultures and a type of mulm which is a food source for the beneficial bacteria. I don't know what names of the bacteria that are in there, but the primary ones are the bacteria directly responsible for the nitrogen cycle (ammonia - nitrite - nitrate etc.), the others are those which are synergistic with plant roots, etc.
So how does it differ from bacter 100?

I'd bet a good bit of money bacter 100 is just heterotrophic nitrifying bacteria to help shorten the huge ammonia spike from aquasoil.

Thus you have to also provide Clear Super (heterotrophic bacteria, unlike autotrophic bacteria that normally do nitrification, need carbon for their life cycle or they die.) which looks just like ground graphite.

Which also explains why you have to add Penac P and Penac W, one of which is probably just a peroxide, without it the oxygen levels in the substrate would be low and the bacteria would just die off.

Now what I wan't to know is how you keep them alive for more than 72 hours once oxygen levels in the substrate drop.

My assumption is that you don't keep them alive, and that is why you add Green Bacter later on to keep with the denitrification process.
Green Bacter is a liquid, do you know if it needs to be refrigerated or has an expiration date?
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:40 PM   #168
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So how does it differ from bacter 100?

I'd bet a good bit of money bacter 100 is just heterotrophic nitrifying bacteria to help shorten the huge ammonia spike from aquasoil.

Thus you have to also provide Clear Super (heterotrophic bacteria, unlike autotrophic bacteria that normally do nitrification, need carbon for their life cycle or they die.) which looks just like ground graphite.

Which also explains why you have to add Penac P and Penac W, one of which is probably just a peroxide, without it the oxygen levels in the substrate would be low and the bacteria would just die off.

Now what I wan't to know is how you keep them alive for more than 72 hours once oxygen levels in the substrate drop.

My assumption is that you don't keep them alive, and that is why you add Green Bacter later on to keep with the denitrification process.
Green Bacter is a liquid, do you know if it needs to be refrigerated or has an expiration date?
Clear Super contains no bacteria - it is an activated carbon and organic acid food base for the bacteria. Two fold purpose: stabilizing chemistry and promoting growth of bacteria.

Bacter 100 does contain both heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria to help the cycling process, but it also contains many other different types. The white papers state that it actually contains over 100 different types of Bacter 100. Now, I've never measured and identified each type of bacteria myself, however I can absolutely state that it contains more than nitrifying bacteria because it's primary use after being put under the substrate is as a natural agent that kills cyano bacteria (if you sprinkle it on top of cyano bacteria (blue-green algae)) over night you will literally see it eat away the cyano bacteria.

In this capacity it aids in the prevention of cyanobacteria within the substrate, which can be common in aqua soil without bacter 100.

Penac isn't really a peroxide (which are toxic in any significant quantities in the aquarium). They aid in both stabilizing the water parameters by neutralizing the acidifying effect in the soil a bit, and in Penac W's case actually has two purposes outside of the soil: 1 to use with RODI water once a month (or really soft water), 2 if you over-carbonate your water (e.g. overdose CO2), you can use it to rapidly oxygenate the water and save the inhabitants during an oxygen shortage.

For more detailed general Penac information you can read about it here.

Green Bacter does not have to be refrigerated. It's an organic acid compound that promotes bacterial growth. It's essentially another food source for the Bacteria itself, It's considered a bacteria 'activator,' which is probably the best way to think of it. Phyton Git works on the same principle, as well as ECA.

So what you're seeing here is a very, very recurring pattern.

ECA, Phyton Git, Green Bacter all serve as bacterial activators using organic acids (highest concentration in Green Bacter), they also contain amino acid supplements necessary for plant growths (highest in ECA).

So these liquids in part or in whole promote bacterial growth.

Then on the other end you have Bacter 100 - pure dormant Bacteria which jump starts cycling and eats away / prevents cyano bacteria first and fore most.

Furthermore you have Bio Rio, Power Sand - highly porous pumice based material which supports organic bacterial growth "the home" for bacteria, and have bacteria caked into the pumice itself to help start and sustain.

Then on the other token you have:
Clear Super,
Tourmaline BC
Tourmaline F
NA Carbon / Bamboo Charcoal

Which all formulate for water purity / toxin removals.

and the Penac's which serve to promote oxygenation.

The recurring factor here is an extreme focus on promoting bacterial growth, not only at the initial stage but throughout the life span of the aquarium. Promoting and maintaining this healthy bacterial system is exactly what you see when you witness an aquarium which has reached stability and is basically completely clean of algae with little maintenance.

P.S. if you've found these techniques valuable, help share the information with new comers by linking back here in your own journals when you use my techniques!
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:38 PM   #169
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The diffuser post made a lot of sense. I appreciate the time you took to explain it and I'm sure many others do as well. Thanks! Did you happen to see my email or did it get lost in the mountain?

Edit: Saw your email and responded appropriately. I'll have you know that Outlook crashed about 10 times while formatting that message perfectly before switching over to a Word document for ease of saving.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:57 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Francis Xavier View Post
Clear Super contains no bacteria - it is an activated carbon and organic acid food base for the bacteria. Two fold purpose: stabilizing chemistry and promoting growth of bacteria.


Bacter 100 does contain both heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria to help the cycling process, but it also contains many other different types. The white papers state that it actually contains over 100 different types of Bacter 100. Now, I've never measured and identified each type of bacteria myself, however I can absolutely state that it contains more than nitrifying bacteria because it's primary use after being put under the substrate is as a natural agent that kills cyano bacteria (if you sprinkle it on top of cyano bacteria (blue-green algae)) over night you will literally see it eat away the cyano bacteria.

In this capacity it aids in the prevention of cyanobacteria within the substrate, which can be common in aqua soil without bacter 100.

Penac isn't really a peroxide (which are toxic in any significant quantities in the aquarium). They aid in both stabilizing the water parameters by neutralizing the acidifying effect in the soil a bit, and in Penac W's case actually has two purposes outside of the soil: 1 to use with RODI water once a month (or really soft water), 2 if you over-carbonate your water (e.g. overdose CO2), you can use it to rapidly oxygenate the water and save the inhabitants during an oxygen shortage.

For more detailed general Penac information you can read about it here.

Green Bacter does not have to be refrigerated. It's an organic acid compound that promotes bacterial growth. It's essentially another food source for the Bacteria itself, It's considered a bacteria 'activator,' which is probably the best way to think of it. Phyton Git works on the same principle, as well as ECA.

So what you're seeing here is a very, very recurring pattern.

ECA, Phyton Git, Green Bacter all serve as bacterial activators using organic acids (highest concentration in Green Bacter), they also contain amino acid supplements necessary for plant growths (highest in ECA).

So these liquids in part or in whole promote bacterial growth.

Then on the other end you have Bacter 100 - pure dormant Bacteria which jump starts cycling and eats away / prevents cyano bacteria first and fore most.

Furthermore you have Bio Rio, Power Sand - highly porous pumice based material which supports organic bacterial growth "the home" for bacteria, and have bacteria caked into the pumice itself to help start and sustain.

Then on the other token you have:
Clear Super,
Tourmaline BC
Tourmaline F
NA Carbon / Bamboo Charcoal

Which all formulate for water purity / toxin removals.

and the Penac's which serve to promote oxygenation.

The recurring factor here is an extreme focus on promoting bacterial growth, not only at the initial stage but throughout the life span of the aquarium. Promoting and maintaining this healthy bacterial system is exactly what you see when you witness an aquarium which has reached stability and is basically completely clean of algae with little maintenance.

P.S. if you've found these techniques valuable, help share the information with new comers by linking back here in your own journals when you use my techniques!


So what is the shelf life on these things?
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:03 AM   #171
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So what is the shelf life on these things?
They basically last for years as long as you keep the cap's on em and they aren't in extreme heat or cold. I've yet to run into any expirations.

P.S. if you've found these techniques valuable, help share the information with new comers by linking back here in your own journals when you use my techniques!
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:09 AM   #172
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They basically last for years as long as you keep the cap's on em and they aren't in extreme heat or cold. I've yet to run into any expirations.
How exactly would you be able to tell if they were expired?
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:10 AM   #173
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Alrighty, Day 6 of water changing here, and today's is a little more intensive. Still got the brown water from before, so it's signaled that it's time to go ahead and take the extra time to remove dead plant matter:



Before any work.

I drained a little of the tank water to make it easier to work with, then turned off the filter and began cutting every plant that was yellowish or decaying. They're doomed anyway so just cut em off and get rid of them.

Not sure if you can see it, but here's the trimmings at the top:



Mostly a few bits of HC (was emmersed), Microsword and some tenellus (also emmersed), The Hair Grass will get it's own unique trim probably in a few days, as it's making the transition as well, and I will wait for more green shoots to pop up.



Use airline tubing to remove decayed plant matter without disturbing planting.

The got-to-be-by-now-infamous bucket shot:



The Riccia Stone outside:



Proceded to drain to this level:



There's an extra step I took today: I filled the aquarium back up to about where you've seen it all this time, at this level:



Now, at this time I noticed by chance an odd filmy white substance on all of the corners of the aquarium in the silicon, so I quickly took a razor blade to remove it after turning off the filter again.

From there I drained the tank back down to the original level and filled her back up and finished:



Total time today was about 30 minutes of work all said and done.

Dosing: Brighty K 1 squirt, Green Bacter 7 drops.

P.S. if you've found these techniques valuable, help share the information with new comers by linking back here in your own journals when you use my techniques!
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:11 AM   #174
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How exactly would you be able to tell if they were expired?
The powders won't unless they get wet (like you dumped water into the canister)

The liquids, I honestly couldn't tell you, as I've never experienced spoiled additives and ferts. However I imagine they'd smell pretty terrible.

That being said, I've had the same Green Bacter and Brighty K / Step 1 for 2 1/2 years without witnessing any difference in performance. Finally ran out and I had to replace, but that's as long as I've made it with one set.

P.S. if you've found these techniques valuable, help share the information with new comers by linking back here in your own journals when you use my techniques!
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:30 AM   #175
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The powders won't unless they get wet (like you dumped water into the canister)

The liquids, I honestly couldn't tell you, as I've never experienced spoiled additives and ferts. However I imagine they'd smell pretty terrible.

That being said, I've had the same Green Bacter and Brighty K / Step 1 for 2 1/2 years without witnessing any difference in performance. Finally ran out and I had to replace, but that's as long as I've made it with one set.

P.S. if you've found these techniques valuable, help share the information with new comers by linking back here in your own journals when you use my techniques!
The powders will never expire? The bacteria in green bacter live forever?

Iron is Iron, so it shouldn't expire.
Carbon doesn't expire.
Ferts are just nutrients, those shouldn't expire, and feeling good about your aquarium doesn't expire either.
Feeling so good that you invest loads of time and effort in doing a regimented and highly rewarding and effective maintenance schedule doesn't expire...


Could it be that you would never experience a difference in performance because there was no performance to begin with beyond your own diligence?

The same reason you wouldn't experience a difference in performance between not using the majority of these products at all?


I apologize to you, Frank, and to everyone who reads this post and thinks I am being rude.

You are all free to believe whatever you want and express your views no matter how opposed they are to mine, I also have that right and so I posted this.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:49 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Chlorophile View Post
The powders will never expire? The bacteria in green bacter live forever?

Iron is Iron, so it shouldn't expire.
Carbon doesn't expire.
Ferts are just nutrients, those shouldn't expire, and feeling good about your aquarium doesn't expire either.
Feeling so good that you invest loads of time and effort in doing a regimented and highly rewarding and effective maintenance schedule doesn't expire...


Could it be that you would never experience a difference in performance because there was no performance to begin with beyond your own diligence?

The same reason you wouldn't experience a difference in performance between not using the majority of these products at all?


I apologize to you, Frank, and to everyone who reads this post and thinks I am being rude.

You are all free to believe whatever you want and express your views no matter how opposed they are to mine, I also have that right and so I posted this.
I totally support you doing and making your conclusion it's great!

To be quite honest, I foresaw this post from you about four posts back. How's that? You will learn one day that there are certain strings of questions people ask when they are looking for a hole to be argumentative.

So I am not insulted, I think you have the right to make up your own mind, and I might be like your dad telling you to do something when you have an idea of another way.

If you want a full dissertation on all of my experience using various techniques and then another complete dissertation on the methods of the Chinese in Seattle and another on the complete experience of ADG - starting with good habits and basically mineralized top soils, then I can give it to you.

But the fact remains: as of today this methodology is the most repeatedly proven for success, and the best aqua scapes in the world are crafted using this same background techniques.

Many ways to skin the cat: at the end of the day this is the method that I found to be the easiest for the best results.

I've bumbled and done things exactly how you're doing them now: and I know their pitfalls and benefits and the work required already, and I don't teach them because of those pitfalls.

As for Bacter 100: it's dormant powdered bacteria. Dormant bacteria can remain alive incredibly long periods of time in extreme conditions even.

Green Bacter is a food source. Sure these can eventually go bad but you won't reach that time in the time you use it.
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Old 03-23-2012, 02:32 AM   #177
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I also have that right and so I posted this.
You've already proved your skepticism about the additives. At this point you're just attempting to ensnare Frank with hypothetical and suppositions. If you're so desperate to prove that it's snake oil, buy the product line and test it yourself.
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:31 AM   #178
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Well whether you support ADA products or not, I have to give Frank a lot of credit for throwing himself into the Lion's Den, LOL.

Personally if any company in this space has earned the right to discuss the value of their products it's ADA. How many have joined this hobby based on their books, gallery, etc. and seeing what is possible.
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:36 AM   #179
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In all fairness, I'd give a mention to competitive products for the additives if there were any I knew of. But most companies only focus on half of the equation.
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:01 AM   #180
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Because most companies would be throwing their money away packaging those sorts of things.


And yes I crafted my statements with a purpose, but not to be argumentative.




As for people asking me to buy the products and test them myself, I have the facilities to perform thorough bioassays on the ADA products.
It's just a guess, but I think that's the last thing ADA wants or they would have data on their products.
That's why an American company couldn't sell these kinds of things, the majority of our companies don't have the kind of apple-esque appeal and following to turn a profit without proof, data, ingredient lists, msds, etc. (does ADA have msds sheets? Seems like they would have to have something like it)

But no I'm not going to buy them and test them, send me something and I'll ask some of my professors for greenhouse space.
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