The Fisherman's 20 Long Journal - The Workbench

[thefisherman]

Progress pic 02-19-12

started gassing co2 last night. got a great deal for a used dual stage regulator plus 20# tank. i'm running the GLA inline diffuser on the outflow. hope my fish aren't floating when i get home! :O



- thefisherman

[talontsiawd]

Not looking it's best but I give it a week before it looks amazing. I hate posting rescapes myself for that reason, lol.

I thought you were running CO2 all along for some reason (probably the plants you sent me lol). You will become a very experienced trimmer in no time, lol, a 20 long with good light and CO2 can get crazy with stems.


Let me know how you like your GLA inline. I am planning to get one soon as my glass diffuser isn't really fitting in with my setup. In back it pushes the plants forward, upfront, I don't like the look.

I know it's too late but I suggest to never make CO2 adjustments when you are not home all day, much less setup a new setup. Hope you are OK there.

Congrats on the new rig. I am not sure how long my 20lb lasts as my first 2 refills were due to a leak. Still lasted like 6 months with a leak, lol, I actually didn't know it was leaking. This fill is going on it's second year.

Hopefully you aren't past your hydro test before your next refill lol. Keep that date in mind if it isn't recent and drain your tank, I am serious, it's a possibility and will save you some cash if you are swapping tanks. Tank doesn't look new, not sure if you needed to test and looks like a swapper, only reason I bring it up.

[thefisherman]

Originally Posted by talontsiawd

Not looking it's best but I give it a week before it looks amazing. I hate posting rescapes myself for that reason, lol.

I thought you were running CO2 all along for some reason (probably the plants you sent me lol). You will become a very experienced trimmer in no time, lol, a 20 long with good light and CO2 can get crazy with stems.


Let me know how you like your GLA inline. I am planning to get one soon as my glass diffuser isn't really fitting in with my setup. In back it pushes the plants forward, upfront, I don't like the look.

I know it's too late but I suggest to never make CO2 adjustments when you are not home all day, much less setup a new setup. Hope you are OK there.

Congrats on the new rig. I am not sure how long my 20lb lasts as my first 2 refills were due to a leak. Still lasted like 6 months with a leak, lol, I actually didn't know it was leaking. This fill is going on it's second year.

Hopefully you aren't past your hydro test before your next refill lol. Keep that date in mind if it isn't recent and drain your tank, I am serious, it's a possibility and will save you some cash if you are swapping tanks. Tank doesn't look new, not sure if you needed to test and looks like a swapper, only reason I bring it up.

talon i appreciate your candidness and is the reason why i hold your opinion in such high regard... Plantbrain puts it best in a prevoius thread when he said:

"Scaping versus merely growing plants are two very different goals."...

In view of this I think I fall into the latter category lol. because i have collectoritis, a lot of what i've been doing is cramming as many species of plants in my tank as i can... and hoping they grow!

its been an increadible learning experience thus far....I'm just glad my rare softwater stems are thriving an producing new plantlets.

i myself are surprised how well my plants have grown sans co2... but the price to pay is great. i've overdosed excel and killed some poor fishies in the process before I found the right daily dosage.... also i've found it very expensive. i used a 500ml bottle in a month. so co2 injection is a logical and cost saving investment.

problem with excel dosing is the uneven co2 levels. hopefully with the metered injection, the tank will benefit. havin dinner now with the fam... sisters birthday. about a bottle of jameson and 4 heinekins right now... if my fish are floating i either won't care or cry like a baby lol.

cheers bro.. remember i have plants for you!









- thefisherman

[crazydaz]

Yeah, you'll love the pressurized CO2, Fisherman! You get all sorts of crazy growth and insane pearling!

You have to find a different spot for the cylinder, though.....it's a little distracting!

[thefisherman]

Originally Posted by crazydaz

Yeah, you'll love the pressurized CO2, Fisherman! You get all sorts of crazy growth and insane pearling!

You have to find a different spot for the cylinder, though.....it's a little distracting!

thanks crazy...regarding ghe size and location of my tank, i thought my wife would have some words with me... but i guess i got her used to the 2217 and 200w ETH haning off the side of my tank. she has't said a word yet! :O

but this setup wasn't what I planned on having in our room; it was truly a last minute deal. i have a 5lb aluminum tank and a new regulator coming this week (which is what I originally planned for this tank). now i have the option of juicing myother tanks.

i think i'm gonna see how i do with this setup first. i already have my hands full wothout co2... i'm aftaid maintenance is going to be crazy soon :O


- thefisherman

[talontsiawd]

Originally Posted by thefisherman

talon i appreciate your candidness and is the reason why i hold your opinion in such high regard...


i myself are surprised how well my plants have grown sans co2... but the price to pay is great. i've overdosed excel and killed some poor fishies in the process before I found the right daily dosage.... also i've found it very expensive. i used a 500ml bottle in a month. so co2 injection is a logical and cost saving investment.

You have two types of basic scapes, a softscape and a hardscape (and the obvious combination of the two). With a plant driven scape, it hasn't to grow for it to look good but as I said, rescapes (with only plants) almost always look bad until everything grows in. I didn't mean to even have the be negative, it's more just the "I can't wait" factor. It will look sweet and I can see the foundation.

My 29 probably looks really unappealing to anyone but me right now lol. It's because I know exactly what it's going to look like. The pictures show a wall of plants and a bunch of grass, not too exciting. If my tank comes out as planned, I know I will get the "why didn't I see this tank before" from people who saw that tank before and thought "If I don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all" lol. I am sure you will get the "why didn't I see this already too". I have had the luxury to see how beautifully you grow plants as well so I am sure it looks 10x better in person now, and will look 10x better in pictures soon, that look 10x better in person.


I have ditched the idea of excel so long ago. Even on a small tank, it really isn't that expensive but I just find it doesn't do much compared to CO2. It prevents algae but I don't see much of a difference in growth. It is a great algaecide, either all the time, or when needed, and that is what I use it for. Everyday I am there on my girlfriends 5 gallon, when needed elsewhere. My girls 5 gallon does get algae when i don't use it for long periods of time, as said growth doesn't change. I did the unthinkable (for me) and started DIY CO2 on my 20L rock pile, compared to doubling the recommend excel does (after water change) to DIY, huge difference. Growth is still horribly slow but you may be able to see the grass in pics now, we will see when I update.


Trust me, CO2 will be an "ah ha" moment for you. You are not someone with massive algae issues looking for solutions, again, I have seen your plants, I can say that with confidence. You have a great grasp on things and your tank is about to explode. My first and favorite tank was like this. After that, I was trying to add light and using CO2 with an algaecide mentality, very frustrating, especially when you actually know what you are doing wrong and try to prove yourself wrong lol.

Sorry, talking a lot here. I can't wait to see this explode and it truly will. Keep your scissors out, you will need them (in a good way). Time to start shaping and making colorful bushes.


I don't know if you caught it but you said you had the plants ready in my thread and I gave you the word to ship. If they are ready go go, I am saving a place for them (which ironically was the place I had your last plants but decided to move them to a different tank I don't have journal on).

Sorry for the ramble, I would love to hear your reaction to the change in plant growth once you get your CO2 dialed in. Unless you are shooting way below 30 PPM, or even 15 PPM for that matter, it's not going to be a subtle change. I would love to hear back on that topic in about a week, I will get a kick out of it I am sure.

[thefisherman]

Originally Posted by talontsiawd

You have two types of basic scapes, a softscape and a hardscape (and the obvious combination of the two). With a plant driven scape, it hasn't to grow for it to look good but as I said, rescapes (with only plants) almost always look bad until everything grows in. I didn't mean to even have the be negative, it's more just the "I can't wait" factor. It will look sweet and I can see the foundation.

My 29 probably looks really unappealing to anyone but me right now lol. It's because I know exactly what it's going to look like. The pictures show a wall of plants and a bunch of grass, not too exciting. If my tank comes out as planned, I know I will get the "why didn't I see this tank before" from people who saw that tank before and thought "If I don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all" lol. I am sure you will get the "why didn't I see this already too". I have had the luxury to see how beautifully you grow plants as well so I am sure it looks 10x better in person now, and will look 10x better in pictures soon, that look 10x better in person.


I have ditched the idea of excel so long ago. Even on a small tank, it really isn't that expensive but I just find it doesn't do much compared to CO2. It prevents algae but I don't see much of a difference in growth. It is a great algaecide, either all the time, or when needed, and that is what I use it for. Everyday I am there on my girlfriends 5 gallon, when needed elsewhere. My girls 5 gallon does get algae when i don't use it for long periods of time, as said growth doesn't change. I did the unthinkable (for me) and started DIY CO2 on my 20L rock pile, compared to doubling the recommend excel does (after water change) to DIY, huge difference. Growth is still horribly slow but you may be able to see the grass in pics now, we will see when I update.


Trust me, CO2 will be an "ah ha" moment for you. You are not someone with massive algae issues looking for solutions, again, I have seen your plants, I can say that with confidence. You have a great grasp on things and your tank is about to explode. My first and favorite tank was like this. After that, I was trying to add light and using CO2 with an algaecide mentality, very frustrating, especially when you actually know what you are doing wrong and try to prove yourself wrong lol.

Sorry, talking a lot here. I can't wait to see this explode and it truly will. Keep your scissors out, you will need them (in a good way). Time to start shaping and making colorful bushes.


I don't know if you caught it but you said you had the plants ready in my thread and I gave you the word to ship. If they are ready go go, I am saving a place for them (which ironically was the place I had your last plants but decided to move them to a different tank I don't have journal on).

Sorry for the ramble, I would love to hear your reaction to the change in plant growth once you get your CO2 dialed in. Unless you are shooting way below 30 PPM, or even 15 PPM for that matter, it's not going to be a subtle change. I would love to hear back on that topic in about a week, I will get a kick out of it I am sure.

bro believe me no negative reads at all, if anything.. honest and constructive. which is the most i can ask from anyone reading my thread. i'm here to learn. if i can even come close to the success others in the PT community has had (including yours!) i feel my hard back breakung work is paying off

no harm no foul brotha... i didn't realize you were saving a spot! i hacked the bottoms of those needle leaf rotalas... give me a week. i'll ship next monday


- thefisherman

[thefisherman]

so my fiah are still alive after a full day of gassing. i inspected my setup and noticed a slight hissing noise this morning. i feared there was a pinhole leak sonewhere.

before i decided to use watery soap to trace for the leak, i just did a closer inspection of the outflow line (needle valve to diffuser) and noticed the hissing at the diffuser. i loosened and disconnected the tubing and trimmed a 1/2" off the end... perhaps it was frayed cuz its old tubing... and reconnected/hand tightened the compression ring.

no more hissing! silence. increased the bubble count to 3-4/sec.


- thefisherman

[crazydaz]

3-4 bubbles/sec is a bit much. I only run 1-2 bubbles/sec on my 200gal and get plenty of growth. I just don't want you to lose fish (potentially). Not trying to be a Negative Nancy, Fish....just trying to help!

The tank will look fantastic, considering it looked great before the CO2!

[Doc7]

Originally Posted by crazydaz

3-4 bubbles/sec is a bit much. I only run 1-2 bubbles/sec on my 200gal and get plenty of growth. I just don't want you to lose fish (potentially). Not trying to be a Negative Nancy, Fish....just trying to help!

The tank will look fantastic, considering it looked great before the CO2!

Bubbles per second is a very relative measure though.

Water vs Mineral Oil bubble counter
Check valve cracking pressure
Diffusion method
Surface movement
Regulator working pressure
Etc

All play into bubble rate.

I run probably at least 10 BPS on my system (5 lb tank lasts 3 months though!) on a 40 Breeder and have trouble maintaining 30 PPM (at least in drop checker locations).

Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk

[crazydaz]

I respectfully agree and disagree with you Doc! Whereas what you say is certainly true, without a drop checker, it becomes an excercise in trial and error. The only way Fish would know that there is too much CO2 in the system without a drop checker is if he either saw the fish gasping at the surface or floating upside down.

Running more than a few bubbles per second is indicative of an inefficient system, but that is simply my opinion. If Fish is running through a diffusor using one filter, there probably isn't a lot of surface agitation where the CO2 would outgas at a really fast rate, which means he probably doesn't need a high bubbles/second rate of CO2. My guess is as good as yours, Doc!

Fish, I would recommend that you leave it at one or two bubbles/second and see how it goes; if you don't see any improvement in growth over the next two weeks, then you can always increase it, if you want to. If you happen to have a lot of surface agitation or an inefficient diffusor or a drop checker, then you may need to increase your rate as Doc suggests. I say "go slow," and use a little caution; you'll get the same results in the end.

[Thark]

You have a very pretty tank! Very colorful and looks like everything grows fast.

[thefisherman]

Originally Posted by Thark

You have a very pretty tank! Very colorful and looks like everything grows fast.

thank you for your kind words as much as i'd like to think everything grows fast... my crypts are generally growing sloooowww lol. best example of this is my parva.

aside from some notable exceptions of course... like the mother crypt planted at the back of my tank that has no name
idk wendtii maybe? :O

all the other crypts are just alive and in some sort of stasis. i hope the introduction of co2 wakes them up tho!



- thefisherman

[thefisherman]

to answer doc's query below are my params:

I use a Mineral Oil bubble counter


Not sure what my check valve cracking pressure is

GLA inline diffuser

Surface movement... ehiem outflow from a 2217


Regulator working pressure... low side set to 30psi


my gas kicks on for about 10hrs for now...


- thefisherman

[thefisherman]

Originally Posted by crazydaz

I respectfully agree and disagree with you Doc! Whereas what you say is certainly true, without a drop checker, it becomes an excercise in trial and error. The only way Fish would know that there is too much CO2 in the system without a drop checker is if he either saw the fish gasping at the surface or floating upside down.

Running more than a few bubbles per second is indicative of an inefficient system, but that is simply my opinion. If Fish is running through a diffusor using one filter, there probably isn't a lot of surface agitation where the CO2 would outgas at a really fast rate, which means he probably doesn't need a high bubbles/second rate of CO2. My guess is as good as yours, Doc!

Fish, I would recommend that you leave it at one or two bubbles/second and see how it goes; if you don't see any improvement in growth over the next two weeks, then you can always increase it, if you want to. If you happen to have a lot of surface agitation or an inefficient diffusor or a drop checker, then you may need to increase your rate as Doc suggests. I say "go slow," and use a little caution; you'll get the same results in the end.

so i just got home a little while ago to find out that i totally fried what was remaining of my Amano shrimp! . wish i saw your warning sooner!

apparently inverts don't like super soft water...my fish on the otherhand seem to be pretty content. the remaining species are:

GBR
Dwarf Neon Rainbow
Chili Rasboras
Cardinal Tetras
Cory Hasboras
Ottocinclus

even though my shrimp looked like they belonged on a platter at red lobster... none of my fish seem stressed or gasping for air. quite the contrary they seem to be swimming around happier than ever. so my question now is...what now?

do i push the envelope; keep going until i see fish gasping? :O right now i have my outflow raised to oxygenate my water for safe measure. i might just stick with 3 bps for now but shorten my duration... i.e. gas for 7-8hrs instead of 10-11. this is all new territory for me







- thefisherman