UPDATE: IT'S FISH TB. ...Help me diagnose this disease that's killing my fish - Page 5
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:25 PM   #61
FlyingShawn
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What about ultra-high concentrations of salt?

I know Mycobacteria is just as dangerous to marine fish as freshwater, but I'm talking like Dead Sea near-saturation level salt. Would it be able to survive 24 hours in that?

If it worked, I could nuke the filters, tank, substrate, and decorations all at once without having to worry about damaging the seals of the tank. After a few big drain/fill cycles, the tank would be once again safe for occupancy without fear of toxic residues.
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Old 01-31-2012, 06:27 AM   #62
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I emailed Dr. Palmeiro about some of these questions today, here is what he said:

When asked about how much Mycobacterium resides in the substrate (because I seemed to remember him saying there wasn't as much to be found there):
Quote:
I said it concentrates more in the biofilm, it is definitely found in the substrate as well, especially with higher organic loads
With regard to the idea of soaking the substrate in alcohol for ~30min to sanitize it in the tank:
Quote:
Bleach followed by alcohol would probably be better, but this would probably work. If possible, i would STRONGLY recommend replacing the substrate.
In response to Msjinkzd's idea of drying out the tank for a couple months:
Quote:
Mycobacteria are fairly resistant to dessication, I would not rely on this as a method for disinfection
And finally, in response to my idea of trying ultra-high salt concentrations:
Quote:
Salinity alone is not enough to kill the bacteria.
I also found this thread about sanitizing Flourite on the SeaChem support forums:
Cleaning/Disinfecting Black Flourite
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Old 01-31-2012, 04:34 PM   #63
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I finally had some time to digest Diana's article and wanted to comment on a couple things.
Once I realized that indeed is probably FTB, the background level concept was what my intuition was telling me made the most sense. Due to how hard it is to completely eradicate these bacteria, how frequent they are in aquariums, and for the following reasons.

In my case, I acquired a 55g with two fish from a friend. It was fully established (5 yrs or so) and after giving the fish away (cichlids) I started a community tank. Since the tank was cycled I stocked it fairly quickly, within 3-4 months I had most of the fish I wanted in there.
Except some neons that died after a month in the tank, none of the other fish seemed ill. Water parameters never got out of whack, and I only had one Ich out brake for the next 5 months. Then, one day one of my stigmata loaches developed a curved spine and started to lose weight, another (out of 4) started swimming erratically. Took both fish out, euthanized one and the other died in a hospital tank. That is when I started doing research, and concluded that it was either parasites or Fish TB. So I treated for parasites.
For 2-3 months after that, everything was fine so I acquired 4 GBR's. Again, for another 4-5 months everything went well until one day, with NO symptoms (that I could tell), one of my paired/breeding angel fish died, I didn't understand, maybe I was just overstocked (~20+ growing fish).
Then I moved out of State. All the fish made the 900mi. drive, but after 2-3 weeks the GBR's started dropping like flies and my betta developed the bloated stomach with wasted body sintoms. The GBR's all got progressively worse hollow bellys and after a couple weeks they all passed, while the betta was just hanging in there. I thought for sure parasites, and maybe the new water weakened the fish, while TB was in the back of my mind. So I treated for parasites with quick cure, and after a month I acquired 4 new fish, they all died within 2 weeks, but some had stringy feces, so I kept thinking maybe it is hard core parasites...
At this point I decided that I am not going to get any new fish, upgrade to a 120g to give a better environment to the rest of my stock (~20 fish now), nuked the 55g, and made it bare bottom with decorations to keep as hospital tank until the 120g cycled. I treated with Flub. for parasites and waited, soon enough, I got a nitrite spike on the 55g and lost 2 more fish despite my efforts with WCs, and the betta was so wasted I euthanized him.
So after a couple more weeks of daily WC and a lot of observation everything was well. I started introducing the fish from the 55g, that looked healthy and never displayed any symptoms whatsoever, into the 120g. At this point, only the fish that had been completely healthy for the 12+ months that I've had them were transferred to the 120g.
Then I found your thread and the TB diagnose, kicked myself in the head, since I have now introduced "healthy" carriers of the disease to my new tank (potentially) and I am pretty sure it is TB. That is why Option 2 is what I am doing now. I will keep transferring the fish in the 55g little by little to the 120g.

Conclusion: Basically, I've had a contaminated aquarium for probably almost 1 year now, and most of my fish, about 80%, seem just carriers/survivors. I believe that except in two occasions were deaths happened for "no reason", the flares were always months apart and due to some concrete environmental change in combination with overstocking; and also when new fish with no immunity were introduced.

So, since I am moving again in 6 months, I am going to commit to not getting any new fish, buying a UV sterilizer and see what happens. If the fish keep getting sick I will euthanize right away.
After I get established at a new place, and if my fish survive for another few months, I will seriously consider the "Sentinel" idea for my QT tank and a 2-3 month QT for any new additions. If I lose all my stock, I will sanitize the tank as much as I can (probably with a combo of different sanitizing agents) and turn the 120g into a salt water tank, and do something different with the hobby in order to keep my sanity.

(Sorry for the long post, English is my second language and I was trying to explain everything without confusing people)
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Originally Posted by FlyingShawn View Post
[...] My initial plan was to go for Option 2, but as all this has sunk in over the last few days I've begun to wonder if some variety of nuke is somewhat inevitable simply on the basis of having to protect my own health. [...] On top of it all, I'd feel bad introducing any new fish to the tank, which wasn't even fully stocked yet, because it'd potentially be a death sentence!

That's not to say that I've ruled out Option 2 yet, [...]

The reason I'm looking at a one year QT for those guys is because those specific species are known to be especially vulnerable and because I positively know they've been exposed to it.

When it comes to QTing new arrivals, I'm also dealing with the same questions you're asking. I don't think a year would be necessary. A couple months ago I started practicing a 1 month QT, prior to that (when I got these guys) I was only using a week. Now I'm considering 1.5-2 months and might go as high as 3. It's certainly possible for TB to elude you longer than that, but there has to be a point of "acceptable risk" and I'm guessing most fish will begin to show symptoms within that time frame if they have it. Not an expert opinion, of course, but that's the direction I'm leaning.

Please let us know what you decide to do, both for your tanks and QT procedures!
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Side note for FreshtoSalt: read her QT recommendations, it seems like 2-3 months is a good target.
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Old 01-31-2012, 08:39 PM   #64
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First, this is an excellent set of posts on the results of the test you had done.

I'd say that there would be some risk, but you could quarantine the fish you consider valuable, and see what happens. As for the plants and substrata, I'd replace them. Plants would likely be killed by any disinfectant you used, and the substrata is just too difficult to really clean. The rest of the stuff, rock driftwood, and equipment should be ok.

Yea, it's a pain to replace substrata, but doable. Plants can be regrown.

Good luck with this project.

I'm gonna have to disagree here.

If you're going to quarantine and keep some of the fish, there's no reason to not keep the plants with them. The fish are the main risk here. The fish are the vector. If you're keeping the fish, you might as well keep as much as you can.



I've had a lot of conversations with people about Myco, and its pretty tough to get rid of. Its something that pretty much every major aquarium out there just kind of lives with.

Employees of these places regularly fail TB tests because of myco.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:33 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by FreshtoSalt View Post
Conclusion: Basically, I've had a contaminated aquarium for probably almost 1 year now, and most of my fish, about 80%, seem just carriers/survivors. I believe that except in two occasions were deaths happened for "no reason", the flares were always months apart and due to some concrete environmental change in combination with overstocking; and also when new fish with no immunity were introduced.

So, since I am moving again in 6 months, I am going to commit to not getting any new fish, buying a UV sterilizer and see what happens. If the fish keep getting sick I will euthanize right away.
After I get established at a new place, and if my fish survive for another few months, I will seriously consider the "Sentinel" idea for my QT tank and a 2-3 month QT for any new additions. If I lose all my stock, I will sanitize the tank as much as I can (probably with a combo of different sanitizing agents) and turn the 120g into a salt water tank, and do something different with the hobby in order to keep my sanity.
Thanks for sharing the story and what you're thinking!

I'm also seriously considering the "Sentinel" idea. From the literature I've been reading, I've gotten the impression that Zebrafish are especially susceptible to TB, so I'm thinking of getting some of them specifically for the purpose of becoming Sentinels.

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Originally Posted by FreshtoSalt View Post
(Sorry for the long post, English is my second language and I was trying to explain everything without confusing people)
I completely understand! Even though English is my first language, I tend to write extra-lengthy posts for the same reason!
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:40 PM   #66
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I'm gonna have to disagree here.

If you're going to quarantine and keep some of the fish, there's no reason to not keep the plants with them. The fish are the main risk here. The fish are the vector. If you're keeping the fish, you might as well keep as much as you can.



I've had a lot of conversations with people about Myco, and its pretty tough to get rid of. Its something that pretty much every major aquarium out there just kind of lives with.

Employees of these places regularly fail TB tests because of myco.
Thanks Rich.

For the plants, my real question is if Myco remains on the surface of the plants or somehow gets into the plants themselves. If it remains on the surface, I should be able to sterilize the plant chemically and have it be safe to introduce into the new "clean" (non-QT) tank. If it somehow gets into the tissues of the plant (I have no idea how that would happen, but I'm trying to consider every possible vector), then it could be immune from the sterilization procedure and would have to be discarded.

Whether the plant survives the sterilization procedure is another question entirely, but I'd rather try and see what happens than just throw it away. If I determine the plants are worth trying to sterilize, I'll be setting them up in an emersed-growth rig to keep them alive while I go through the whole "nuke" process on the tanks.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:52 PM   #67
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Dr. Palmeiro emailed me a couple of factsheets on Mycobacterium:
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I think you had the one from Univ of Florida. The one from SRAC is new and has some of the more recent papers summarized in it.
The first one was the University of Florida one I linked to earlier, the second one can be found here:
SRAC Mycobacterial Infections of Fish

I'm in the process of picking his mind about bleach concentrations and contact times, as well as the possibility of heat-killing the bacteria (such as baking/boiling the substrate and driftwood as a non-chemical or secondary kill method). I'll let you know what I find out when we get a little farther along in the discussion.
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Old 02-10-2012, 04:51 AM   #68
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The histopathology results are in, here's how the vet summarized them:
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Results were compatible with mycobacterium. The GI tracts looked normal with no evidence of parasites. One fish also had a gonadal tumor, but this was likely an incidental finding and not related to the clinical disease. It was a severe case with numerous granulomas, mostly concentrated in the kidneys.
As far as bleach concentrations:
Quote:
<Me> Speaking of the bleach stage, if I use a 10:1 water/bleach concentration (or maybe 9:1 for ease of measurement), what would you recommend for the contact time?

<Vet> According to the variable papers out there, concentrations upwards of 50000 mg/L may be required. With 5% bleach (50 mg/ml), you would need to add 1000 mls into 1 liter to achieve the necessary concentrations, which equals 50/50 dilution. Bottom line, I am ok with 1:9, but you need to do it for about 24 hours to try to get a prolonged contact time to kill the bacteria
I've asked him about contact times for the higher 50/50 dilution, but have gotten no response. The bigger question on my mind is if the silicone seals on the tank could survive a 1:9 concentration for 24 hours! I've heard anecdotal stories that bleach will damage the seals, but never seen anything concrete on the matter.

The other question is if such a contact time is even necessary. As he said, it would be required to kill the Myco, but if I'm doing the Lysol/Alcohol stages later, don't I really only need the bleach to break down the biofilm to prepare for those other chemicals?

I've also asked about using boiling or baking to heat-sanitize driftwood/rocks/substrate/etc, but he says he has "no clue" as to the answer. I've found some scientific literature that might seem to indicate it would work, but don't have the background to know that I'm interpreting it correctly. To get some fresh input on the matter, I've posted a thread in the "General Planted Tank Discussion" forum: Anyone with biology knowledge: boiling or baking to kill Mycobacteria/Fish TB?
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Old 02-10-2012, 05:59 AM   #69
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I haven't read this entire thread, but I think you're starting to split hairs here - keep it simple. Going through theories of what is the most effective is only useful to a point, you just want something that is good enough to disinfect the system, it doesn't need to be perfect enough to kill everything on the planet.

It's not necessary to go to such a high bleach concentration, the point of the bleach isn't to kill the Mycobacteria. If you're cleaning out the filters and so forth, 1/10 for a short period, less than an hour will probably be fine. Like you said, the point is to strip the biofilm and other organics. If you're following it up with a good dose of 80% alcohol, that is the part that is designed to kill the bacteria. What is probably more important is to give everything a good scrub before and after the bleach dose to try and remove as much organics and crud as possible. The bleach is only the backup to melt all the little bits that you miss.

Heat will probably knock it off - marinum is a low temp bug, not as temp tolerant as some others in the genus AFAIK. Boil it for a while and it will probably be fine. Wood and rocks are fine with this or soaking in alcohol, I'd ditch your substrate and plants or keep them in a known contaminated system because I don't think it's worth the effort of disinfecting to a satisfactory degree.

Quite frankly, most people are not set up to prevent Mycobacterium entering their systems (including me), and I wouldn't even bother trying. The main issue is how on earth do you tell when a fish has Myco (or other pathogens for that matter)? Acute infections and disease is one thing, but diagnosing a carrier is flat out impossible without euthanising several in a group and performing histology or molecular based diagnosis. Even in this case, the group would have to be held for a long time before the diagnosis to make sure any possible disease is transmitted. You can knock out most parasites by throwing praziquantel, levamisole, fenbendazole etc at them, but try doing this for antimicrobials and you'll probably end up with all sorts of resistant bugs growing in your quarantine tank over time.

The only way I can think of to make sure your stock aren't carriers is to allocate tanks into "clean" and "dirty" facilities like many scientific animal houses are set up. Trust no one & only transfer disinfected eggs into your clean facility. Even this is not 100% without some good screening, but it's as good as you can get without some specialized equipment and/or reagents.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:48 PM   #70
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It's not necessary to go to such a high bleach concentration, the point of the bleach isn't to kill the Mycobacteria. If you're cleaning out the filters and so forth, 1/10 for a short period, less than an hour will probably be fine. Like you said, the point is to strip the biofilm and other organics. If you're following it up with a good dose of 80% alcohol, that is the part that is designed to kill the bacteria. What is probably more important is to give everything a good scrub before and after the bleach dose to try and remove as much organics and crud as possible. The bleach is only the backup to melt all the little bits that you miss.
That's roughly what I was thinking. I'm not sure why the vet was recommending the long contact-time when the other chemicals are the "kill" elements.

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Heat will probably knock it off - marinum is a low temp bug, not as temp tolerant as some others in the genus AFAIK. Boil it for a while and it will probably be fine. Wood and rocks are fine with this or soaking in alcohol, I'd ditch your substrate and plants or keep them in a known contaminated system because I don't think it's worth the effort of disinfecting to a satisfactory degree.
I've bolded the key part here. My guess is the same as yours, but I'm really hoping to find someone who can actually say with some authority that this is right (hence why I started the other thread I linked to).

I'll be posting the latest set of plans in the near future, but they essentially consist of a "full nuke" of the existing tanks, with the most valuable fish being moved into a "dirty" (to use your term) permanent QT with high-powered UV. I'll probably start the mass euthanasia tomorrow.

Thanks unissuh!
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:19 PM   #71
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I am sympathetic to your plight here! I too have been worried about TB in my tank.

I have a beautiful healthy LOOKING planted tank however I have had fish dying with these symptoms also. They start out first separating from their school and just sitting around in one place in the tank. Then they just seem to waste away slloowwllyyyy. They seem to linger for weeks and I just can't bear to kill them hoping they will get better. By the time they are ready to die a couple of them have twisted looking bodies.

The strange thing is, that this has only happened to the glofish and guppies.

I have a german blue ram, 2 balloon rams, otos, neons and a redlined shark. Oh and a male and female betta. (Yes they actually live in an uneasy truce together in the tank but it is heavily planted) None of these fish are showing any of the symptoms even though some of them have been in there longer then some of the glofish were. Every glowfish (8) has now died. The guppies died first and fairly quickly after I got them and I suspect were the ones who carried this to my tank.

I can't bear the thought of just killing all these fish and my beautiful healthy plants so I am watching your thread carefully. It will be interesting to see if now that the last glofish has died if it will affect a different kind of fish now.


Anyway, the thing that made me post is listening to all your plans for sterilizing your tank. I think you said it was a 55 gal. and expense is a consideration. If you are really thinking about taking it all apart...

My question is.. you do realize that if you just have one of the plain old retangle 55s, that you can toss the one you have and buy a new one at petco right? Their rectangle tanks are 1 dollar per gallon. It seems like it would be worth the 55 dollars to avoid trying to sterilize and possibly damage the seals. The rest of the stuff is smaller and easier to clean but man.. imagine if you damage the seal and refill it and it breaks. Ugh.

If you have one of the irregular shaped tanks then I guess you are stuck...the petco sale doesnt include their corner, bowfront or other strange shaped tanks.

Unfortunately for me, mine is a bowfront so it wouldn't work for me


PS. I work in a veterinary hospital.. I wonder how psycho one of the vets would be if I asked him if he would be interested in performing a necropsy on a fish lol. I can just picture his face now.
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:23 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unissuh
Heat will probably knock it off - marinum is a low temp bug, not as temp tolerant as some others in the genus AFAIK.
I've bolded the key part here. My guess is the same as yours, but I'm really hoping to find someone who can actually say with some authority that this is right (hence why I started the other thread I linked to).
Sorry, should have probably qualified that statement a little more. It is more of a fairly well educated guess, not an assumption, but there is no single report which has tested boiling.

What has been done is a number of studies examining heat treatment of paratuberculosis, avium etc as these are animal Myco that could be contaminating dairy products. Pasturisation (145-160F) for 20-40 min kills all of those, see no reason why boiling for the same amount of time wouldn't work.

The only "assumption" part is that marinum is as heat susceptible as other Mycos which is pretty much a certainty considering that i) it is well known for usually only infecting human hands or other extremities that aren't maintained at core body temp and ii) that one old fashioned way of treating marinum infections (that actually cured the infection alone in some cases) was heat therapy.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:58 PM   #73
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I have a beautiful healthy LOOKING planted tank however I have had fish dying with these symptoms also. They start out first separating from their school and just sitting around in one place in the tank. Then they just seem to waste away slloowwllyyyy. They seem to linger for weeks and I just can't bear to kill them hoping they will get better. By the time they are ready to die a couple of them have twisted looking bodies.
I'm sorry to say it, but those symptoms sound exactly like what I experienced. Different species, of course, but the symptoms seem the same. Doing the necropsy was expensive, but I definitely felt it was worthwhile for knowing what I'm up against. Otherwise, I'd feel much more like you: not able/willing to take really drastic action out of any slim chance that it's not TB and the hope you can still save them.

Quote:
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If you have one of the irregular shaped tanks then I guess you are stuck...the petco sale doesnt include their corner, bowfront or other strange shaped tanks.

Unfortunately for me, mine is a bowfront so it wouldn't work for me.
Nor me, unfortunately. The tank is a 52gal Flat-Back Hex. At times like this, I really wish I'd gotten a standard 55 instead, but at the same time I really like the look of the tank and it works really well in the room.

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PS. I work in a veterinary hospital.. I wonder how psycho one of the vets would be if I asked him if he would be interested in performing a necropsy on a fish lol. I can just picture his face now.
Just imagine if you waited until April 1st to ask him! You'd have that much harder a job of trying to convince him you're serious!

If you have a good relationship with one of the vets and get the chance, could you please pick his brain on heat-sterilization? We've got a good discussion going on that other thread I started (Anyone with biology knowledge: boiling or baking to kill Mycobacteria/Fish TB?), but the main question seems to be centering around if a "dry heat" process can kill bacterial endospores.

Good luck with your tank, I really feel for you. Please let us know what you decide to do!
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:04 PM   #74
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What has been done is a number of studies examining heat treatment of paratuberculosis, avium etc as these are animal Myco that could be contaminating dairy products. Pasturisation (145-160F) for 20-40 min kills all of those, see no reason why boiling for the same amount of time wouldn't work.

The only "assumption" part is that marinum is as heat susceptible as other Mycos which is pretty much a certainty considering that i) it is well known for usually only infecting human hands or other extremities that aren't maintained at core body temp and ii) that one old fashioned way of treating marinum infections (that actually cured the infection alone in some cases) was heat therapy.
Exactly the same assumption I've been going off of in my research. There are some sources that say that Myco is spore-forming, so I'm currently leaning towards a dry-heat baking process in the oven to account for that possibility. I haven't found anything that would suggest that they can withstand 450F temps in the oven, even in the spore stage, but am still researching it.

Thanks for the input!
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:17 PM   #75
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How fast does fish tb kill? I had a betta fish die two days ago and he was only sick for 1 day before that, im trying to rule fish TB out
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