120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style new pics 137 - Page 123
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:34 AM   #1831
AaronT
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Originally Posted by jccaclimber View Post
It's been a few years since my last chem class, but that sounds suspicious, especially as I tend to believe that CO2 levels going up don't decrease O2 levels. I'm also pretty sure that the large bubbles in my reactor are in fact CO2. I suppose I could test this by capturing some and seeing what effect they have on a flame.
An oldie, but goodie on CO2 saturation. It happens fast. CO2 can be fully saturated at up to 1500 ppm according to Henry's Law. That's a lot of stinkin' CO2 and the reason why it dissolves so quickly. I won't argue which gasses or how much is forced out of solution, but I'm pretty certain those little bubbles on the other side of your tank are not CO2 and neither is that large bubble in your CO2 reactor by the end of the day.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...uration+bottle

The reason fish can't tolerate excessive CO2 is that it messes with the pressures in the water and makes it hard for them to push out CO2 and take in O2 even if O2 levels are very high.
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:48 AM   #1832
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Keep in mind that CO2 gas dissolves very quickly in water, like less than 5 seconds so the reason you may have seen bigger bubbles is because you were diffusing it even more efficiently and causing larger bubbles of atmospheric gas to form.

The CO2 mist that everyone talks about is only comprised of CO2 near the point of entry. Once the bubbles are on the other side of the tank they are no longer CO2, but atmospheric gasses.

The reason you don't see these using a reactor style difusser is because the atmospheric gases build up inside of the reactor chamber instead of being shot all around the tank.
Conditions such as flow, ambient CO2 concentration, rates of degassing. What about water surface tension on a gas bubble? Hardness/TDS/salts play a large role there. This is WHY we see ultra fine mist in marine systems with aeration/protein skimmers, but hardly any with freshwater. The increase in surface tension allows for the ultra fine mist we see in marine tanks. As a highly soluble gas like CO2 dissolves, the tension for the bubble dramatically increases. Water depth also can play a role, pressure is different.

These are not simplistic conditions.
Example:
http://www.istp-22.org/proceedings/p...cuments/94.pdf

5 seconds traveling at 1-2 meter/sec also is a long way to go. Traveling from the impeller, that's across the entire length of my tanks(any of them) easily.
Also, given the CO2 gas we add is relatively pure, no one has ever stated what the mystery gas is or even offered a rational hypothesis.

Plants are cleaner and grow better with it, but this may likely just be the mist itself breaking up surface barrier layer around leaves. Not direct main line CO2 gas per se, but this is a rather difficult thing to measure experimentally.

But as far as the gas, till you run the gas mix through a GC etc, or something along those lines and can capture it etc. You really are way out on limb there.

CO2 does dissolve pretty quick, but I can place different currents and see the bubbles travel much farther, and the type of mist also plays a large role, say a Mazzei, vs Needle Wheel vs say a disc. Each produces mist, but the size fractions are very different for the micro bubbles. Medications can cause all sorts of frothy behaviors of gases and mist, surface tensions also.

Still, the Mist itself inside reactors, should be purged IMO/IME. The gas gap inside the reactors reduces flow and reduces the mist from being captured and dissolved(less efficient reactor basically). You want some slight gas mist by pass from a reactor, and only when the gas bubble builds up to some specific level, say 5-10" of the reactor tube volume.

This is the trade off with mist: a little= not an issue and improves reactor efficacy. Too much, ugly haze in the tank, less water clarity. No mist: poor reactor efficacy.

My oldest internal reactor does the self purging at about that level. This can be modified to external type reactors.

My take on what those other gases are: it's the sum total of the gases in the water, not one specific gas. When you have mist entering, this also creates a massive surface area and diffusion and degassing are 2 way streets, correct?

So CO2 is going in while say O2 is coming out, I doubt N2 is changing much. the total gas saturation ppm does change(we add a lot more CO2 and the plants produce more O2 ONLY during the day). The mist is more pronounced later in the day, same with the build up inside reactors. O2 degasses like CO2 would(and we have ample supply above ambient conditions for both during the day cycle).

The higher than ambient ppm CO2 is added and control by the hobbyists, the higher than ambient O2 is controlled by the plants' growth rate. But both gases still degas out of the water into the air if they are at a higher concentration in the water than the air above.

The micro bubble likely acts like the air above on a much smaller scale. CO2 out into the water/O2 into the bubble. I tried to see if I could collect the gas and light a match in the collected flask. But it's pretty wet and was not purged of H2O vapor.

I likely should get around to testing the gas mixture at some point.
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:55 AM   #1833
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Default Re: 120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style with lots of color instead

Absolutely beautiful

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Old 04-01-2013, 04:59 AM   #1834
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so you are saying that when a micro bubble is shot out of my atomizer and out my filter output, that by the time it reaches the other end of the tank; that it is no longer CO2, the CO2 has dissolved and been replaced with N2 and O2? am i understanding you correctly?
why would that be the case? i can understand the CO2 dissolving, but why would N2 and O2 replace it in the bubble by coming out of solution (in fact, why would they come out of solution, they dont have a common ion or anything like that)? and why come out of solution into the bubble rather than on the surface?
this is the first time im hearing this and its very intruiging, please help me understand.
I would speculate this:

The gas is degassing into the bubble as the CO2 is degassing out.
However, there's a huge problem with this.
The rate of dissolution between O2 and CO2 is enormous.

Still, the huge surface area caused by mist may facilitate a similar case like the surface of our aquariums, with the large amount of CO2 lost to the air above, as well as the O2 being lost when it is over 100% ambient concentration.

We are not really adding more "air" or the other gasses involved in air such as N2, but N2 is not very soluble at all.

Just CO2 and O2 mostly. The mist we add is also entirely CO2 when it starts out. Since the "air" gases other than CO2 and O2 are the same in the water as they are in the air above, there's no exchange/degassing, only CO2 and O2 appear to be able to do this if you ACCEPT the above model.

This seems to make the most sense to me.

But I'd need more than just that personally, I need a 3rd party to confirm the gas. This would not be tough to do either.

Cap the ends on your CO2 reactor late in the day and have a bleed purge valve to remove the gas. Take this whole thing down to a lab. Tell them what you think it is and see if the IR/GC/MS says. Pay the bill and read their analysis.
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:02 AM   #1835
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I remember reading that Tom was speculating that this is also why plants seem to do so well after large water changes that briefly expose them to the air.
Tap water is typically much higher in CO2 and also in O2.........so that O2 is degassing. Also, the total dissolve gases ppm is higher in tap than your aquarium. You also get massive circulation changes from water changes and al the O2 might enhance the bacteria in the sediment etc.
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Old 04-24-2013, 07:20 PM   #1836
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Will be doing a few new things this coming week or so.

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Old 04-24-2013, 07:41 PM   #1837
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Oh man what happened to the UG?
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:56 PM   #1838
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Oh man what happened to the UG?
Got harvested, sold and then replanted.
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:59 PM   #1839
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Got harvested, sold and then replanted.
Beautiful as always Tom! How do you maintain the water level in this tank? You use an auto top off or just rate of evap is low enough the weekly water change is enough.
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Old 04-25-2013, 05:13 AM   #1840
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Beautiful as always Tom! How do you maintain the water level in this tank? You use an auto top off or just rate of evap is low enough the weekly water change is enough.
Sump is fairly large, so it last a week or so before I need to refill it, which is the water change schedule at a min typically.

Once we move into our house, I have other plans and automation for water changes and cisterns and landscape irrigation.

I'll mostly just trim at that point and scape.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:57 AM   #1841
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One of the ballast fried on the ATI, running 6 bulbs this last week and 1/2 till the new one arrives.
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:28 PM   #1842
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The monte Carlo foreground plant turned out nicely. Well behaved too.







I have a hole in the front there and just pout some R. indica true, but that's just a temporary spot.
I likely will move a few pieces of the foreground wood and fill the far right with the Ludwigia sphaerocarpa as it has a nice larger bronze colored leaf and will make a nice contrast there.

I have some small Riccia stones and dwarf riccia I'm still thinking about for that front spot.
Riccia is good for CO2 indicator.


The R macrandra does very well in this front spot also.
I did not have the best of luck with trimming it very frequently over time in the past. Whatever, now it seems that issue is cured, but the rapid growth and shade and current changes does not help the UG. It's growing, but just not that well.
I recently replanted it and it tends to look ratty and yellow for a few weeks till it starts to take off again(2 months). I need to trim the R macrandra obviously in these pics.

Below you can see the mini A reinecki roseafolia. This plant I thought would be not that good/great over time. My main gripe is the color development for most of the Alternathera's, I have some true A. rosefolia, but it hates the full light, this one is more like the old nice stuff I use to get, there must be many variants being sold, because the conditions have been similar when the nice color develops and the location/current, etc.

An idea is use the A reineckii in the R macrandra spot since it's slower growing and has larger nice cherry color red leaves. Then use the R macrandra in the rear for color contrast.
I moved the mini butterfly back, this is a good spot for it.

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Old 05-05-2013, 07:52 PM   #1843
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How old was your ati fixture when the ballast went out?
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:00 PM   #1844
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How old was your ati fixture when the ballast went out?
1 year and 4 months, with a 1 year warranty, about 100$ to replace DIY.
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:34 PM   #1845
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Default 120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style with lots of color instead

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One of the ballast fried on the ATI, running 6 bulbs this last week and 1/2 till the new one arrives.
Yikes.

I have an ATI fixture as well. Best light I have ever used but I cringe at the fact that it might break.

Where did you order your ballast from?



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