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Old 09-06-2011, 10:30 PM   #16
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Your articles are SO good. The only way I could ever repay you is by buying some hanging planters...

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Old 09-06-2011, 11:01 PM   #17
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Hydrophyte - thanks! very helpful. I see you mentioned in a couple of places (possibly here or your blog - that some plants like more "root aeration" then other. It seems this would mean adding more of the clay balls and less of the gravel? What plants benefit from this - if my understanding is correct?

Also, do you find low flow or higher flow in the water area is better? I added a few floaties to my tank to see what the flow underneath is and it looks to pretty slow, turns about 3 times the volume an hour.

Do you think adding ferts once a week on a light dose would be sufficient or too much. (I do EI on my planted tanks for a 20g and thought I would do 1/4 that dose but only add it once a week, with little extra iron)

Thanks as always! At this rate I see a small pond in my back yard by next year
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:26 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RipariumGuy View Post
Myth two: Paludariums are not a type of riparium/vise versa. Enough said.


But, good thread as usual Hydrophyte. I was in the middle of writing a short article about stuff like this myself, but I see that you beat me to it!
Okay, then how are they different again? What defines a paludarium?
You cannot define one without defining the other specifically.

A Pal has/can have some elements of a Rip and vice versa.
There is going to be dogged overlap here and this is going to get worse.

Is my tank a riparium or paludarium?



Anything above the water is terrestrial, the tank above has both of these elements. Below and above.
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:30 AM   #19
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I believe a paludarium has a portion of its footprint dedicated to land all the way to the bottom, while a riparium has water with no solid land areas that extend to the bottom...
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:37 AM   #20
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Sure you can have something that is a hybrid form of a riparium and a paludarium, but for the purpose of discussion it is useful to make a distinction between the two kinds of setups.

It will generally be easier to design and set up an appealing riparium if done in the standard way and without a built-up abovewater hardscape. With a built-up abovewater hardscape a riparium will lose some of the important advantageous features, especially modularity.

Without modifications a riparium will generally be best as a habitat for fish and plants. A paludarium, on the other hand, can be very good for amphibious animals if it is put together in the right way.
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:46 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by duff View Post
Hydrophyte - thanks! very helpful. I see you mentioned in a couple of places (possibly here or your blog - that some plants like more "root aeration" then other. It seems this would mean adding more of the clay balls and less of the gravel? What plants benefit from this - if my understanding is correct?
Well there are certain plants that seem to do better with the planter filled mostly with clay pebbles. These include Spathiphyllum, Anubias and Acorus. But those plants will do fine planted the regular way too. If you ever plant that way it is important to put a good 1" cap of the finer gravel on top of the clay pebbles. Otherwise the clay pebbles will float away and the plant will tip out of the planter.

Quote:
Also, do you find low flow or higher flow in the water area is better? I added a few floaties to my tank to see what the flow underneath is and it looks to pretty slow, turns about 3 times the volume an hour.
I don't know. Most of my tanks only have moderate flow and everything seems fine. I would probably set it up right for the fish and the plants will be fine.
Quote:
Do you think adding ferts once a week on a light dose would be sufficient or too much. (I do EI on my planted tanks for a 20g and thought I would do 1/4 that dose but only add it once a week, with little extra iron)

Thanks as always! At this rate I see a small pond in my back yard by next year
That sounds like it would probably work well. If you have a good fish load then you might not need to add much else, although it can be helpful to add extra iron. What kind of water are you using? Do you have hard tapwater?
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:56 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by hydrophyte View Post
Ripariums and paludairums are not the same thing.

Unlike many paludarium setups, ripariums do not have any real terrestrial area, so there isn't any place to plant upland plants.
This did not answer the question.

What is a terrestrial area? What defines that?

I'm not sure how you plan to decouple the linkage between the water and the land.

I suppose one could use the definition of the wetland soil, one that is 100% lacking in air space. So any region that has air space in the soil + some submersed growth would be defined as a paludarium?
Anything with no terrestrial root area(100% saturated sediments, water column) but emergent leaf/stem/shoot growth, would be a riparium?

Thing that bugs me is the riparium definition since is means something very different than your definition here versus the Biological side of things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riparian_zone

It includes both zones and the transition itself, not just one, in other words, riparium would be a better descriptor than paludarium.

"Marsh or swamp" is the descriptor for paludarium. Futhermore, "Marsh" and a "swamp" are very different to a wetlands ecologist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paludarium

It would seem more appropriate to use the term riparium for a broader range and simply do away with the paludarium term altogether. Perhaps that should be argued for rather than changing the definitions of each around.

Riparian is a river bank/stream bank, marshes are very different, but many of the plants chosen are marsh, not river plants. A few are swamp plants. Hydrophilic plants characterize these zones and not the % saturation of the sediment or submergence.

I think it would lead to much less confusion to keep the term boarder and then do away with the paludarium term, since it is less board and misnamed in general. Marsh/swamp plants really do not define what has been often called a pauldarium.
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Old 09-07-2011, 01:01 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WallaceGrover View Post
I believe a paludarium has a portion of its footprint dedicated to land all the way to the bottom, while a riparium has water with no solid land areas that extend to the bottom...
This is a bad idea/definition, since it conflicts with the far more general term riparian zone.

We use river and marsh and swamp and many upland plants are so called true aquatics, for example Anubias, they are terrestrial plants, you will NOT find them in West Africa growing in or under water, I think one case or two etc that researchers who have spent a lot of time there have ever found them growing under water. Ammannia is a terrestrial plant in it's natural habitat. Most of the plants with keep are amphibious and have heterophylly.

Riparium would encompass what we keep better than Paludarium. It would be a more identifiable term to the newbie/novice.
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Old 09-07-2011, 01:11 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrophyte View Post
Sure you can have something that is a hybrid form of a riparium and a paludarium, but for the purpose of discussion it is useful to make a distinction between the two kinds of setups.

It will generally be easier to design and set up an appealing riparium if done in the standard way and without a built-up abovewater hardscape. With a built-up abovewater hardscape a riparium will lose some of the important advantageous features, especially modularity.

Without modifications a riparium will generally be best as a habitat for fish and plants. A paludarium, on the other hand, can be very good for amphibious animals if it is put together in the right way.
I like the term riparium much better. It is more identifiable. It also describes the processes between the submersed and emergent zones between land and water. Paludarium really is not particularly useful term IME/IMO.

I have a hard time arguing for its(paludarium) existence actually, since it is define by marsh or swamp only really.

This is actually going along more with your better terminology
I would prefer the term Riparium as a broad general term, and perhaps emergent growth for leaves simply poking above the water line.

I do not consider my 180 a riparium even though it has some emergent growth:

FTS

ATS:


I would suggest it has some riparium or emergent growth.

I would not call it a paludarium in either case however.
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Old 09-07-2011, 01:53 AM   #25
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These read to me like mainly scientific distinctions, when aquarium-keeping is first and foremost a hobby. I don't know if hobbyists would want to fret so much over whether a plant is technically a marsh plant, technically a swamp plant or technically a riparian plant. I have read lots and lots about these plants, including journal articles, and for many of them I still have a less than clear understanding of what their actual habitats in nature are really like. When I am planning out a setup I try to first come up with something that will have aesthetic appeal and can function as a healthy model ecosystem. Then I might also try to make a general biotope theme with plants and animals from the same general area. (But that is just me.)

I think it is a lot to ask that a planted display be such an authentic reproduction of a natural habitat, and in turn, that the terminology be so faithful to the desriptions of the natural environments. The space is just a fish tank after all which is thousands or millions of times smaller than the real ecosystem.

Considering again the hobby perspective, it is useful to use the two different terms because the basic aspects that one has to consider for setup, especially livestock and plants, are distinct for ripariums and paludariums. By explaining the differences between the two ideas it is much easier to get somebody started with a setup that will have better chance as a healthy and aesthetically appealing display.

Ripariums and (what I am calling) paludariums really are different. If you try to use riparium planters in a paludarium it will start to get in the way of the built-up hardscape and vise versa. It is better to keep the two concepts seperate (while leaving room for hybrids of the two to suit the hobbyist) and it is better to retain the two terms as hooks to hang them on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
This did not answer the question.

What is a terrestrial area? What defines that?

I'm not sure how you plan to decouple the linkage between the water and the land.

I suppose one could use the definition of the wetland soil, one that is 100% lacking in air space. So any region that has air space in the soil + some submersed growth would be defined as a paludarium?
Anything with no terrestrial root area(100% saturated sediments, water column) but emergent leaf/stem/shoot growth, would be a riparium?

Thing that bugs me is the riparium definition since is means something very different than your definition here versus the Biological side of things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riparian_zone

It includes both zones and the transition itself, not just one, in other words, riparium would be a better descriptor than paludarium.

"Marsh or swamp" is the descriptor for paludarium. Futhermore, "Marsh" and a "swamp" are very different to a wetlands ecologist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paludarium

It would seem more appropriate to use the term riparium for a broader range and simply do away with the paludarium term altogether. Perhaps that should be argued for rather than changing the definitions of each around.

Riparian is a river bank/stream bank, marshes are very different, but many of the plants chosen are marsh, not river plants. A few are swamp plants. Hydrophilic plants characterize these zones and not the % saturation of the sediment or submergence.

I think it would lead to much less confusion to keep the term boarder and then do away with the paludarium term, since it is less board and misnamed in general. Marsh/swamp plants really do not define what has been often called a pauldarium.
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Old 09-07-2011, 01:59 AM   #26
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(Please excuse the poor paragraph structure in my precedding post.)
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:47 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
Okay, then how are they different again? What defines a paludarium?
You cannot define one without defining the other specifically.

A Pal has/can have some elements of a Rip and vice versa.
There is going to be dogged overlap here and this is going to get worse.

Is my tank a riparium or paludarium?



Anything above the water is terrestrial, the tank above has both of these elements. Below and above.
A riparium is a setup that utilizes riparium planters and/or rafts. So, your setup is not a riparium. It appears to be a normal aquarium with emersed driftwood with emergent growth(?)

Pardon my stupidity, but what "overlap" is there? I see no overlap. If a setup doesn't use planters and/or rafts, it isn't a riparium. If it does, it is. It doesn't get any simpler then that.


A paludarium on the other hand is a type of vivarium that incorporates both terrestrial and aquatic elements. Planters and rafts are definitely not a form of land.


EDIT: Holy cow did I come in late on this. Let me read some past posts and get back on this....
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:21 AM   #28
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When you use google for a definition of "riparium" you don't get much of anything useful. So, it isn't a widely used term, or at least it wasn't until Hydrophyte began developing the concept. That's why I prefer to stick to his definition. If we were writing for a scientific publication we probably wouldn't even use the term, so I don't think that is relevant. It isn't the first word to be defined by an originator of a concept.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:01 AM   #29
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I got the next one in mind I will write it up tomorrow but now I am tired it's time for bed.

Myth #2 - Planted ripariums are perfect habitats for turtles, frogs, crabs and other amphibious animals.
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:03 AM   #30
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Interesting discussion guys!

Hydrophyte - No fish yet (not sure what might be a good fit yet and I only have about 5g of water to work with) I am using treated tap water for WC's that is somewhat hard water and top off with RO water during the week to keep the TDS in check. So I am just am dosing light ferts for now.

Maybe a small school of CPD's, or a Betta or a Dwarf puffer - decisions decisions...
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