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Old 11-28-2011, 11:27 PM   #46
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KH2PO4, you might want to check out Hoppy's link I provided for more HMF debating. It's really a great thread he started for anyone wanting to discuss the pros/cons and general debate. For what it's worth, you are completely right with your thinking from the months of research I've done on the filter.

Longbeach, thanks for the information! That is the kind of posting that makes me excited to get to work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
Watching the progress of a Sewingalot DIY project can be as exciting as watching Crypt Parva make a carpet. It ends up being well worth watching, but never sets the pulse racing.

I'm in limbo with my planted tank hobby now, with my tanks all torn down, all but one sold or given away, and waiting to get the place ready to sell for a move to an apartment. When I get resettled I plan to set up my 65 gallon tank as a non-CO2 tank, with a mattenfilter as the only filtration. I want something entirely in the tank - no hoses.

Watching my wife and I make a housing change is like watching molasses flow in sub-zero climates.
Haha, Hoppy! All should know from my 18 month old canopy build that has wobbly cuts and light shining through that this will be a long, painful progress.

All of your tanks are now down? I didn't realize you finally got that for. The move is getting closer, now isn't it? Are you going to show experiments with PAR on your tank? Let me know when that molasses of yours gets from point A to point B. LOL

That is also what I wanted for the 33 was no hoses, no potential water leaks from plumbing. The main reason was because it is going in a room with fabric and water leaks would be a very bad thing. Plus it's one of the only two carpeted rooms in the entire house which becomes a bigger mess. Since the 15 is going in the same area, I'm setting up the HMF as planned, just on a smaller scale. I did some bending, and it looks like it won't be too obtrusive. I will be treating the wall as a part of the decoration, so I am not too concerned. After I ship off the last planned shipment of shrimp tomorrow, I'll temporarily rehome the rest of my yellows to the 55 in order to tear down the tank for the filter build. I am projecting maybe the end of this year for that phase.


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I set mine up with aluminum angle
Snipping everything else, did you have any issues with the aluminum in the tank and does your tank have shrimp? I am looking online, but not finding much on the use of aluminum in tanks and it's effects on shrimp.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:11 AM   #47
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Sorry about that, I just sensed it 5 minutes after clicking.

I've been using one for nearly 6 months now. I follow original design (full width of the tank).
It works very well. Really no maintenance required, consumes really low energy.
I'm not sure but it seems to be really able to break down waste. The mulm is very fine
dust sitting at the bottom behind the mat which you can siphon out easily if you care.

The foam I use is not Poret. It is for Koi pond and it's cheaper. Don't know what PPI it is
but about the same as Eheim's coarse blue pad.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:52 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jccaclimber;
Snipping everything else, did you have any issues with the aluminum in the tank and does your tank have shrimp? I am looking online, but not finding much on the use of aluminum in tanks and it's effects on shrimp.
I do not have shrimp, but my snails (2 types of ramshorn and 1 type of pond) have no issues. If anyone wants to send me shrimp to try it out I'll be glad to.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:46 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KH2PO4 View Post
Sorry about that, I just sensed it 5 minutes after clicking.

I've been using one for nearly 6 months now. I follow original design (full width of the tank).
It works very well. Really no maintenance required, consumes really low energy.
I'm not sure but it seems to be really able to break down waste. The mulm is very fine
dust sitting at the bottom behind the mat which you can siphon out easily if you care.

The foam I use is not Poret. It is for Koi pond and it's cheaper. Don't know what PPI it is
but about the same as Eheim's coarse blue pad.
No need for apologies. I figured you may really enjoy reading Hoppy's thread on the subject as it seems to always have a controversy surrounding it despite the enormous positive reviews over 30 or more years. Only a few tend to argue it's lack of usefullness often because they are the type that like to debate everything.

Do you have any pictures of this setup? Sounds great! And what fauna do you have in this tank? Thanks for the description on the silt, as it is often overlooked and isn't really shown where I've looked.

Nice that you chose the whole width of the tank. Any links to the foam you used? Also, do you hide your heater and other equipment behind the wall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jccaclimber View Post
I do not have shrimp, but my snails (2 types of ramshorn and 1 type of pond) have no issues. If anyone wants to send me shrimp to try it out I'll be glad to.
Since the snails are working out, seems like the shrimp would be okay as well. I like the look of the aluminum, could be a way to do a modern twist to landscaping. If you wanted some mutts, I could send you shrimp.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:44 PM   #50
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^Sent you a PM with shrimp questions. I'll try to get a photo of what the aluminum now looks like in the next day or two.
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:19 PM   #51
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Could this setup be considered a mattenfilter? I was debating about removing the sponge filters and using a pump to move water from left to right with a hose above the sponges (water flows back through the sponges), then I figured I will have to worry about keeping the pump prefilter clean and can be prone to clogging if I forget to maintain it.


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Old 11-29-2011, 06:45 PM   #52
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That is just tank dividers, not filters, as far as I can see. Using a pump to move water from one end to the other would be a semi-mattenfilter.
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:49 PM   #53
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Terminology aside, that will filter if you get flow through it via a pump or lift tube/jetlifter with a bend. I'm not sure what type of foam you're using, but based on the volume you have there I suspect you could filter the entire system with just that.
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:32 PM   #54
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Thumbs up Math: The fun stuff!

Thanks for answering reybie's question, you too. I really would agree with just using an air pump as well. JC, answering your pms.

-----------------------------------
Update, moving along on calculations:
So with the help of Kara and the link: http://www.deters-ing.de/Berechnunge...#Mattengroesse I am getting the following needed for the size foam and the gph of the filter. (Listing the parts I used, they are in German, but I am thinking that math is universal, so I am doing a little guess work.)

Unter Vorgabe von gewünschter Strömungsgeschwindigkeit, Beckengröße und Umwälzung pro Stunde lässt sich die erforderliche Mattefläche bestimmen. Die Gleichung ergibt sich zu:
erf. A = Inhalt * n * 1000 / (V * 60) .
In der Realität wird sich die Geschwindigkeit aber um ein vielfaches höher einstellen, insbesondere bei eingefahrenen Matten. Dieses ist in der Querschnittseinengungen aus dem Mattenmaterial selbst und der Verschlammung begründet. In der Praxis macht das nichts aus. Mit den bekannten 5 bis 10 cm pro Minute liegt man sehr gut, Abweichungen davon müssen nicht zwangsläufig zu Problemen führen und hochgenaues Einstellen der Strömugnsgeischwindkeit bringt auch nichts. Damit macht man sich eher lächerlich!


In other words:

Gallons x 3.78 liters x 2 x 1000/(7.5x60) = cm2 needed of foam
(56.7 x 2 x 1000) / (7.5 x 60) = 252 cm2

I convert this into square inches for my brain not to hurt too much.

for those that don't want to look up the calculations: 1 inch = 0.393700787 centimeters

252 x .0393700787 = 99.21259324 sq in needed

And now, my tank is 12” tall, so:
99.21259325/12 = 8.26 is the width needed, which is a little larger than 8 ¼”

To make it easier, rounding up to 8.5 x 12 will give me 102 square inches which should be fine. The question will be if the pump will fit in this area give the bend of the filter and the 2” thickness.


Now for the pump size needed.

Erforderliche Pumpengröße
Entscheidend für die Fördermenge der Pumpe ist Frage, wie oft der Beckeninhalt pro Stunde durch die Matte soll. Für gewöhnlich setzt man 2x an. Bei stark besetzten Becken kann das zuwenig sein, in stark bepflanzten Aquarien gehts auch mit viel weniger. Zu beachten ist, das eine Erhöhung der Pumpenleistung nur dann Sinn macht, wenn die Strömungsgeschwindigkeit in der Matte nicht die z.Zt. anerkannte Obergrenze von 10 cm/Minute überschreitet. Dieses sollte man also mit der zugehörigen Berechnung (sh. oben) immer kontrollieren.

Volumen (ltr) n = Q (ltr)


Take the volume of the tank x the minimum turnover desired, in this case 2 is often recommended. This is an easy calculation when you eliminate the liters:
15 x 2 = 30 gph needed.

The powerhead I have is an aquaclear 20. It is rated for a maximum flow of 127 gph. But it has a flow adjustment. Upon calling the company, at full blockage (turned down to the slowest flow) it is 1/3 approximate of the max gph.

127 x 1/3 = 42.3 gph

Long story short, I am covered on foam and powerhead. Now to decide how I want to attach it to the tank.
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:25 PM   #55
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It seems odd to me that they are working in surface area rather than volume of foam. Is there an assumed thickness of 2-3 inches somewhere? Also, wouldn't pore size control the total surface area of the filter?
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:29 PM   #56
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They may very well be. My German is limited to about a dozen words and they are like "the." So I am thinking they may be assuming 2" but I could be completely wrong on that. I do know that the examples I found online with other sized tanks coincide with my calculations, so I'm pretty confident it'll work.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:22 PM   #57
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Here is the forumla in English (from one of the links in your first post) http://www.janrigter.nl/mattenfilter/

And, one square inch equals 6.45 square cm.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:46 PM   #58
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So totally didn't think about square inches in that one. Nice catch, Hoppy. I did see that one calculation provided by janriter but decided to go by the german site just to be difficult. Actually my thinking was it may be more accurate since it did calculations for you as well, but it doesn't help with human errors. I'll go back and use those calcuations you linked and see if they match or contradict each other. Will report back in a day or so as I am a little lazy as we know when it comes to DIY. Even math.
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Old 11-30-2011, 12:04 PM   #59
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Basically, I can't wait to see what kind of fancy algae sewingalot grows on her Mattenfilter.

This is going to be awesome.
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Old 11-30-2011, 12:39 PM   #60
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The ONLY flaw I have found with my system, is that on the bottom, I should have attached a wall or "I" beam device, to hold back the substrate should I ever need to remove the foam.

Oh well, the way it has been working I see no need to do that. I'll try to send a picture but am ashamed to show my neglected tank on this forum!!... but of couse you all have inspired me to start some changes and artful setups.
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