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Old 08-15-2011, 05:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonpatterson View Post
Lighting is not infrequently the most expensive piece of hardware in an aquarium setup. Agreed with the eek of it all, but it's not terribly surprising, unfortunately. Also, if done right and kept for a long enough period, a substantial fraction of the cost will be recouped in lower electric bills/ fewer replacement bulbs.
oh I know...i went cheap on lighting, probably spent around $100 total on lighting for my 29 and 40.

I considered LED bulbs instead of CFLs for my 40 but the 25-30 dollar price tag per bulb was a big deterrent.
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Old 08-16-2011, 12:03 AM   #17
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I figure it will be cheaper if you span the price out over the period of a couple of years. The price of two t5 bulbs would be what, around 30 dollars? Buy them now, then in about 12 months buy two more, and in 24 months buy two more. That's 90 dollars. Plus I need the fixture to accompany them. Probably 50 dollars? Now we're up to 140. Not sure how much it will affect the electric bill, but let's be modest. Say they save me 10 dollars per year. That's $160 that I would be spending on T-5s. Now the LED lights will probably last at least 6 years (that's consumer math. Producer says "lasts up to 10 years" = 6 years, 7 if you're lucky) So even after two years, my costs won't be recouped. But 3 or 4? Certainly.

Instead of surprised faces over the cost, how about something else. Anyone think the single 50W LED would provide too much light, and cause algae outbreaks? What about if the 50 doesn't have enough spread, and I have to use two 10W LEDs, (70LED Watts) I have stock lighting on my two aquariums, and a regular reading light above my 3 gal. planted shrimp vase. This 75 gal. is going to be quite the endeavor.

If you want shock value, take into consideration the hood I'm going to build will probably be about $150 WITHOUT lights. And the stand (providing I weren't getting some free lumber) would cost about $400

This is the reason I'm on these forums. I don't need advice on woodworking. I need advice on whether or not I'm going to have a nervous breakdown due to not being able to control a microscopic green organism inside of a stupid glass box! So, any ideas on what I should expect if I install one of these bad boys 3 inches above the water in my tank? http://www.amazon.com/Waterpoof-Secu...3449837&sr=8-6
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Old 08-16-2011, 01:10 AM   #18
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I'd be concerned about the spread. I would think for low light plants 3 would do it for sure, 2 not so sure without seeing it on and the kinda coverage you can expect. Wonder what kind of intensity it will have directly under the light? Might have algae problems directly under it and not so much at the outskirts.

Just out of curiosity why is the stand going to cost $400? Even with lumber I would expect DIY stands to range from $50-$100 for something like a 20-30 gallon $100-$250 for a 55-75 gallons, maybe I'm way off.
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Old 08-16-2011, 01:42 AM   #19
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It's not the brand you asked about but mine should give you some general distribution figures of the PAR of a PAR38 6,700K.

1st post, last pic
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/...eef-bulbs.html


If going PAR38 15x1W with 60 degree, you probably want 3 pcs and hang them ~30 inch from the bottom base on the diagram.





Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshinetheslacker View Post
Wingo, I am very interested to find out what kind of info you get from your new bulbs, thank you for checking out my thread!

I this light

http://www.amazon.com/Natural-White-...976436&sr=8-24

and it appears to be a single LED, running at 5 watts. It runs on 12V so I suppose I would have to get some kind of halogen track lighting and replace the bulbs with these. The problem is that most halogen track lights will cost a bit, and possibly put my lights too close to the water. Are there any slim under cabinet lights where I can find out if they will have the proper connections to plug these LEDs into them? I'm not asking anyone to do the research for me, just tell me what to search for!
5x1W gives more light than 1x5W.

You can also ignore the first bulb in your first post because that one use SMD and most SMD bulbs are designed for even distribution and thus will not shimmer. You need power leds and lens to concentrate the ray for shimmering.
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:18 AM   #20
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Quote:
Just out of curiosity why is the stand going to cost $400? Even with lumber I would expect DIY stands to range from $50-$100 for something like a 20-30 gallon $100-$250 for a 55-75 gallons, maybe I'm way off.
I'm going with an asian theme for the stand and hood. The hood is going to have oak dental crown molding going all the way around it, then a flat portion, then it will be stepped up again with another piece of crown. Large dental oak crown molding is EXPENSIVE! And as for the stand, the feet are going to be made of 4x10s (just TRY to find some of these... PRICEY!!!) And due to certain cool factors that I want incorporated into the stand, I'm not going to be able to use 2x4s almost anywhere. The structural components will mainly be held together with oak (due to being stronger than a pine 2x4 but much thinner) Also, the actual base that the aquarium will be sitting on is going to be DIY butcher board made out of 2x6s... that alone is going to be pricey. But I managed to find free 4x10s, and some free oak (old palattes that I can pick through, and rip apart) Plus I'm going to need the hinges, and inlay pieces. I'm planning on making this stand... not to sound too pompous or anything... but, I'm planning on making my "masterpiece" The stand will be my "prettiest" work yet. I'm both looking forward to it, and am quite afraid of it. Especially if the aquarium lighting and such doesn't work out, and I have a pretty stand with a giant green blob sitting on top of it... yech!
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Old 08-16-2011, 01:12 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by moonshinetheslacker View Post
I'm going with an asian theme for the stand and hood. The hood is going to have oak dental crown molding going all the way around it, then a flat portion, then it will be stepped up again with another piece of crown. Large dental oak crown molding is EXPENSIVE! And as for the stand, the feet are going to be made of 4x10s (just TRY to find some of these... PRICEY!!!) And due to certain cool factors that I want incorporated into the stand, I'm not going to be able to use 2x4s almost anywhere. The structural components will mainly be held together with oak (due to being stronger than a pine 2x4 but much thinner) Also, the actual base that the aquarium will be sitting on is going to be DIY butcher board made out of 2x6s... that alone is going to be pricey. But I managed to find free 4x10s, and some free oak (old palattes that I can pick through, and rip apart) Plus I'm going to need the hinges, and inlay pieces. I'm planning on making this stand... not to sound too pompous or anything... but, I'm planning on making my "masterpiece" The stand will be my "prettiest" work yet. I'm both looking forward to it, and am quite afraid of it. Especially if the aquarium lighting and such doesn't work out, and I have a pretty stand with a giant green blob sitting on top of it... yech!
I have only made a couple pieces of furniture, but my stand is alot better than the laundry hamper I made. I guess practice is the key.

I look forward to seeing your stand.

Back on the lighting, since you are planning on making a hood have you considered doing the lighting with screw in CFLs?
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Old 08-16-2011, 03:53 PM   #22
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I've considered using the screw in CFLs, but I really want that shimmer effect you get from LEDs. Plus LEDs are just plain cool! I wonder how many screw in CFLs I would need for a 75g? And what would cost be like for them in the long run? If I use 5 of the 10W LED floods, that would most certainly cover the whole tank, and would cost around $160. It would be around 2400 lumens total. I need to do some research to see if that's a good amount of light.

I'm assuming nobody really knows what kind of issues I might run into using a 50w LED flood light? Other than possibly having to use more lights just for full tank coverage, that is.
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Old 08-17-2011, 11:10 AM   #23
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Anyone? Maybe someone might know something more about a lumens per gallon rule, rather than watt? I know LEDs penetrate the water better due to not being reflected off another surface and down into the water. Maybe I should try comparing lumen output from a metal halide daylight, and see how it compares to these LED floods? Any comments or questions are very welcome. I don't want to spend a bundle on lights that don't work properly.

quick edit: metal halides put out a LOT of lumens!!! And even one daylight CFL puts out about as many lumens as four of the 10W floods that I'm looking at. I'm beginning to think that these floods won't work at all...

Second edit:

I did a little PMing with Hoppy, and here is his reply about some of the LED floods (in case anyone out there is wondering)

*****"The problem with those LED flood lights is that there is no standard configuration of them, so it is impossible to say what any one would give you in PAR, even if you have measured the PAR from others. And, I have only seen a PAR measurement from one such light, so I have no idea what any other would give. You need to either measure the PAR directly, or at least use a light meter of some kind to compare it to a different light whose PAR you already know. I can't do that, because I don't have any access to the LED flood lights. Until the manufacturers develop some kind of standard specifications for those I don't think we can do anything except measure each one before we decide to use it.

You need to know at least two things about one of those "bulbs" - how much the light spreads out (the angle of the light cone they produce), and how much light they produce at at least one distance. For now I think it is a hopeless situation, so I just avoid them. "*****

So, I ordered one from Amazon, and hopefully over the weekend I'll be able to track down a PAR meter to rent/borrow. I'll update the thread once I find out how much PAR one of these 10Watt LED floods put off. I'll list the model number and all that as well.

Third edit: Looks like it's gonna be no-luck on the PAR meter. Still a couple farms around I need to call, but it's looking doubtful. My new plan is to grab a 5 gallon bucket, enter in planned substrate (dirty) plant 2 low light plants, and two high light plants (I have a couple high lights which are dying with a quickness) hang light the same height above the substrate as I'm planning on them being when the hood is assembled. See how things are going after a week. I'm hoping that everything will take off, there will be no algae, and everything will grow just PERFECTLY!

You know what they say, hope in one hand, hold a diaper in the other... see which one fills up first.

We'll see.

Last edited by moonshinetheslacker; 08-18-2011 at 01:02 AM..
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Old 08-18-2011, 04:59 AM   #24
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If you're looking for best value and good lighting try this out http://www.socalireefs.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=18996

keep in mind you won't need as many as he used..... I use some on my edge reef and for a planted tank the amount he is using is way overkill so the higher you can raise them the better, its also really cheap and mine don't even get a little warm...
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Old 08-19-2011, 01:24 AM   #25
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That totally falls into DIY for sure... but I'm looking for a super simple DIY LED setup. And I think I may have found it. Today I came home to a package. My 10W LED floodlight. Produces a good amount of light, and is quite a bit smaller than I had pictured in my mind. I cut apart a 2 dollar extension cord, wired in a switch, and walked around the house, plugging it in, and blasting pets/kids/wives with handheld flood light action!!! (I'm a bit of a sadist)

Then I put it over my aquariums to see about the light difference.

BIG light difference! The actual bulbs on both aquariums, when lit up, are sort of pink. But the water looks perfectly clear/white.

I put the LED flood in place and all of a sudden I pick up on the fact that I have some SERIOUS green water action going on!! Didn't even realize it, until I put the old bulb back, and looked through the water lengthwise.

Also, with the LED flood, the tank looks much more similar to the way it comes out in photographs when I take pictures of it with my DSLR. Which leads me to believe that the light is a bit closer to sunlight than the stock grow lights. But this is EXTREMELY subjective, and is probably just my own bias toward having a fun new toy to plug in and blast the household with!

In any event, back to the light! I grabbed a 5 gallon bucket, and dirted it. I dirted it up real good. I'm thinking about using a 50/50 mix of organic soy/manure fertilizer with organic miracle grow. So I mixed a small batch, screened it (pulled a TON of bark out of the miracle grow, and a lot of rocks out of the soy/manure... what were those cows eating?) and all is now sitting in the bucket which is filled with water. Give me a good 24 hours until everything is mostly settled before I begin my grow test.

I'm going to have the one light approx. 24 inches above substrate
Light will be on about 12 hours per day. I may put it on a timer if someone convinces me that it is THAT much of a difference?
I will plant one very small crypt parva.
One small Java fern,
a small clump of Java moss
rotala rotundafolia
and a little bit of vallisneria.

So I'll have the super slow grower, low light (crypt parva)
I'll have a slow grower, low/medium light (java fern)
the rotala... I have very little knowledge on this plant. It seems to do fine in low light, but grows quickly... I'm thinking it's sort of a "prefers medium to high light, but will survive in low)? Not too sure..
And the vals. I know that if you get this stuff growing quickly, there's no stopping it until it WANTS to stop. I used to have to trim this stuff faster than I'd have to remove duckweed! That was in a medium light setup.
And of course, there's the high light... ALGAE! Although, if I only get a little algae over the next week, and no explosion, It will probably be from having fresh dirt in water.

So this is the idea I have concocted... PLEASE feel free to shoot holes in it! I really want to test this light out, and see if these will work out. If I am doing EVERYTHING wrong, then tell me. If I am doing one small thing right, then tell me (I could use the confidence booster!)

Good night y'all. I'm off to dreamland!
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Old 08-19-2011, 01:23 PM   #26
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I thought using cow poo was bad? Least that is what Dianna Walstad says
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Old 08-19-2011, 06:13 PM   #27
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Do you by chance recall why she said it's bad? I was thinking since I'm not going to have any fish in there for a while, all the ammonia would leech out in a few weeks, and I would have no worries. I'll try to google it.
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Old 08-19-2011, 07:29 PM   #28
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Do you by chance recall why she said it's bad? I was thinking since I'm not going to have any fish in there for a while, all the ammonia would leech out in a few weeks, and I would have no worries. I'll try to google it.
She doesn't give a why, but HERE is where she says it is bad.
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Old 08-20-2011, 01:45 AM   #29
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Didn't see where it's bad in your post, but that's alright. I googled her a little bit, and discovered that she says it's bad to put any kind of fertilizer (including manure) into a naturally planted tank.
I agree that she has a ton more experience than I do, and probably a degree or two to back up what she says.
But a lot of people use ferts, and for a "non"-naturally planted tank, I would *guess* that manure (after being turned into dirt, and not poop!) is fine to use as part of an aquarium substrate.
First, THANK YOU! The more feedback I have for my aquarium, the better. And I didn't even realize that Diana Walstadt recommended against manure until you mentioned it.
Second, I will probably be going high light, co2, auto dosed ferts, etc. Why? Because I need a break from going to work, being a father, being a hubby, and fixing up a 160 year old house. I NEED this tank! I NEED something to help me find my zen.

Sorry, I digress...

Due to you mentioning Diana Walstadt recommending against manure, I have spent several hours researching it, and consulting my wife (microbiologist type) about it. If you had never mentioned it, I never would have researched it.

So again, thank you.

I will see how the plants do with this light and this substrate setup (I'm certainly not about to try to separate the manure from miracle grow, now that i've mixed them!)
But If I have some sort of weird algae outbreak, or the water parameters skyrocket, then I will change this little tryout, and use some of the extra mineralized topsoil that I have on-hand.

Again, thank you.

And anyone else who has something to add to this thread, PLEASE feel free to post!! Give advice! Shoot holes in my experiment! Talk smack! Whatever, as long as it is at least a tiny bit useful to figuring out what I need to do to have this tank set up properly, and in the way I want it set up. Or useful to figuring out if these LED floods are any good, etc.

BTW:
I picked up almost ALL the lumber I need for building the hood, and stand! I'm hoping on beginning to cycle a tank in the next three weeks!

This is one slacker who is CRAZY excited!
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Old 08-20-2011, 03:40 AM   #30
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Didn't see where it's bad in your post, but that's alright. I googled her a little bit, and discovered that she says it's bad to put any kind of fertilizer (including manure) into a naturally planted tank.
I agree that she has a ton more experience than I do, and probably a degree or two to back up what she says.
But a lot of people use ferts, and for a "non"-naturally planted tank, I would *guess* that manure (after being turned into dirt, and not poop!) is fine to use as part of an aquarium substrate.
First, THANK YOU! The more feedback I have for my aquarium, the better. And I didn't even realize that Diana Walstadt recommended against manure until you mentioned it.
Second, I will probably be going high light, co2, auto dosed ferts, etc. Why? Because I need a break from going to work, being a father, being a hubby, and fixing up a 160 year old house. I NEED this tank! I NEED something to help me find my zen.

Sorry, I digress...

Due to you mentioning Diana Walstadt recommending against manure, I have spent several hours researching it, and consulting my wife (microbiologist type) about it. If you had never mentioned it, I never would have researched it.

So again, thank you.

I will see how the plants do with this light and this substrate setup (I'm certainly not about to try to separate the manure from miracle grow, now that i've mixed them!)
But If I have some sort of weird algae outbreak, or the water parameters skyrocket, then I will change this little tryout, and use some of the extra mineralized topsoil that I have on-hand.

Again, thank you.

And anyone else who has something to add to this thread, PLEASE feel free to post!! Give advice! Shoot holes in my experiment! Talk smack! Whatever, as long as it is at least a tiny bit useful to figuring out what I need to do to have this tank set up properly, and in the way I want it set up. Or useful to figuring out if these LED floods are any good, etc.

BTW:
I picked up almost ALL the lumber I need for building the hood, and stand! I'm hoping on beginning to cycle a tank in the next three weeks!

This is one slacker who is CRAZY excited!

ooh crud I could have sworn it was there that I read it, sorry. Well I know she said it at some point, she frequents APC's forum so maybe it was there. Anyway, just passing along the info not sure its will matter in your case.

I used Miracle Organic Choice Potting Mix in my 40 gallon and it has some chicken manure in it haven't had any noticeable problems and my fish are fine.

Im looking forward to seeing your stand, sounds like its going to be pretty sweet.
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