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Old 08-10-2011, 11:31 PM   #16
BradH
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I'm posting this here per wkndracer's request. This is my experience with treating camallanus worms in my 29 gallon tank.

Just wanted to share my experience recently with Camallanus worms, so that maybe my info will help some other people in the future.

Brief background. I have had a 29 gallon tank set up for 3 years now. Over the years I have never dealt with any parasites or really any sickness, that I know of. Within this last year, I finally got my tank planted and scaped to my satisfaction ( I need to do a journal on this thing). Also, I finally got it stocked with what I feel is a good mix of fish, some might say overstocked. lol The stock has changed a few times. Gave some fish to friends, moved some to another tank, some died of old age, and some died from a heater malfunction, but nothing to disease.... at least to my knowledge, nothing has died of a disease.

So to get the with the story. I have had my bristlenose pleco that I got from a member on here (toddnbecka for a year, my school of cardinal tetras for almost a year, some hatchet fish and bolivan rams for about 6 months and a marbled angelfish for a few months.

I noticed when I added the bolivian rams that one had something weird by it's vent, but thought maybe it was part of the fish. You'd have to see it to understand. Anyways, after several months I came to realize that it wasn't natural, and indeed was camallanus worms.

I had purchased some pancur with fenbendazole a while back and after consulting another member on here for dosing size, decided to try it out on the camallanus worms.

To prepare I did a large water change and removed my nerite snails to my 10 gallon tank. I had read that nerites would die from fenbendazole, so I took them out. I left in my amano shrimp. Next I took a water bottle and put in some tank water, and poured in the fenbedazole. I next mixed in some freezed dried bloodworms, flake, and an algae wafer. I let them soak in there for several hours.

After the food and fenbendazole had mixed together I poured it slowly into the tank. Every fish in there ate as usual. I left the lights out and tank undisturbed for 48 hours after they ate. After 48 hours I turned on the lights and inspected the tank. All fish were alive and well, along with my amano shrimp and mts, but the bolivian ram showing the camallanus worm was still there. I fed the fish and they ate as normal. Did a huge water change and observed for the next several days. All fish remained normal acting, but the worms never did pass.

So I decided to order some Levamisole. I dosed it directly in the tank on monday. Today, 48 hours later.... NO MORE WORMS!!! It's also worth mentioning the lights were left off the whole time as well, as I have read that levamisole is light sensitive. No ill effects on the plants from lack of light I might add.

I will follow up with a treatment again in 3 weeks, incase there were any eggs that hatched between now and then.

I have read on the net that some people had the opposite luck from me. They used levamisole and it didn't work, so they then used fenbedazole.

By the way, I purchased the levamisole from this site. http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ItemsForSale.html The guy was quick to respond and answer my questions and shipped the stuff out on the same day.

Also, I'd like to note that I truly believe a quarantine tank is a necessity. I've been lucky to not have had anything major happen and wipe out my fish. Buying a 10 gallon tank and a sponge filter with a pump or something similar for a quick setup quarantine tank is definitely something I think we should all invest in. I plan on doing so.

*And for the record. If anyone reading this just purchased plants from me, don't worry. I don't sell any plants from this tank. All the plants I have sold come from my shrimp tank and I don't share water jugs, siphons, or anything between the two tanks.
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:05 AM   #17
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Default Flubeandazole and dissolving it in water

For Flubendazole info, please read the second paragraph. Having fought the Camallanus worms, all I can say is ditto on the quarantine and prophylactic treatment for parasites. I used fenbendazole-dosed food for 5 days a week x 3 cycles and it worked after Levamisole did not. However, I ran my T5HOs the entire time I dosed Levamisole and that probably caused degradation of the medicine. One note - I think it's hard to actually overdose Levamisole, but I don't recommend experimenting too much!

Regarding Flubendazole - I had a Ph.D. in Bio/organic chemistry look over the molecular structure of Flubendazole. Based on the Flubendazole molecular structure, it doesn't dissolve in water (sort of). Qualitatively, not much/none appears to dissolve in water. However- while flubendazole does not appear to dissolve, small quantities do actually dissolve. This small amount of Flubendazole that dissolves is apparently enough to reach therapeutic levels in a tank. After some discussion regarding chemical kinetics (yeech), my colleague and I decided the best dosing method for a tank would probably be to add the Flubendazole powder or a slurry directly to a canister or HOB intake. That application traps the Flubendazole powder "grains" in the filter and helps dissolve them through the kinetic action of water continually flowing across the Flubendazole molecules.

Heat, alcohol, and Flubendazole - The manufacturers MSDS sheets on Flubendazole (that's Material Safety Data Sheets) indicate that Flubendazole is not soluble in water, but can be dissolved in MDSO and alcohol and by using heat.

MDSO- is a powerful solvent that should NEVER be used for this purpose. It will dissolve Flubendazole 100%, but if you get it on your skin, you will get an instant absorption of the dose, with potentially baaad results! It's also pointless to use DMSO or alcohol because as soon as you dump the MDSO mixture into the tank, the Flubendazole precipitates out of solution.

Alcohol - Like MDSO, the same thing happens when you dissolve in alcohol. It's safer for human skin contact, but once added to the tank, the Flubendazole will precipitate (come out of solution), that's what gives you the cloud effect as it's poured in. If the Flubendazole was truly dissolved you would not see any white cloud. Again, based on the chemical structure, we estimate a 30% solution of alcohol would be required (in the tank itself!) to keep the Flubendazole in solution. Talk about SWI (swimming while intoxicated ).

Heat - Heating Flubendazole to dissolve is probably not recommended. It may not hurt anything, but there is a part of the molecule that is heat-labile and will break off when heated, changing the molecule slightly. It may make the Flubendazole less effective or more effective, I don't know. Heating probably does make it dissolve more easily based on the molecular structure.

Long-term (very long term) storage of Flubendazole should take place at 0C to -80C based on manufacturers recommendations. Room temp should be fine for aquarists use, but make certain you keep the Flu powder dry and tightly sealed. It is hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs water from the atmosphere and will get lumpy and nasty over time if left exposed.

Hope this chemistry information is useful to folks. I'm not saying anyone needs to change what they are doing. I just wish I had know this chemistry info before I spent two solid days trying to dissolve Flu in water on a magnetic stir plate!

Note-there are variations of Flu produced that are modified to be more water soluble. Those "variations" of the molecule likely have different manufacturer or chemical names.
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Old 08-11-2011, 02:54 PM   #18
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DKRST thanks for the detailed information!
No argument with any part of it and glad to have the reference.

What I've had to work with has been web based information posted on various forums with the breeder sites being the primary source.

Materials and dosing data posted here in the thread are mainly from:
Charles Harrison, Ph.D
http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ItemsForSale.html

Dosing into my tanks when the canister or HOB method you mentioned above won't work I do make a soup of sorts. Getting the flu into solution and into the water column is the biggest challenge of applying the treatment.

I settled on a combination of heat and alcohol after contact with Dr. Harrison.
Dosed dry the first time it took days for it to stop floating in the tank on the waters surface.

Alcohol (vodka) is mixed into the measured dose in a glass container. Only enough to make a paste or slurry out of the flu powder around 1ml more or less, just enough to wet it. Heating a cup of water to boiling in the microwave I wait until the boil settles then add the water in on top of the slurry. Some foaming occurs during the mixing but the majority of the material mixes very well doing this. The liquid is milky in the mixing cup and the tank becomes milky / cloudy as mentioned above but the dilution created by the tanks total volume seems to allow the chemicals to be absorbed into solution and remain suspended by all the evidence following a treatment. My tanks are clear the following morning. Fish have recovered every time I've used the treatment with the exception of two long infested adults. Those fish died with a bloody discharge seeping from the vent. Assuming to much internal damage due to long term exposure to the parasites is my belief. Those losses happened during initial treatment of my tanks when first learning about Flubendazole.

Dr. Harrison includes the chemical chain of the Flubendazole he supplies on his website. I have no idea whether or not it varies from the one you tested.
I do know it has been an effective method of treatment.
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:37 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkndracer View Post
DKRST thanks for the detailed information!
No argument with any part of it and glad to have the reference

I do know it has been an effective method of treatment.
I'm using it from Doc myself, based on your recommendations. I have had no problems with it myself, I just got curious why I couldn't get it into solution when Doc clearly labels it as "water soluble". He's correct from a therapeutic dose standpoint, but it worried me when I had powder all along my tank waterline.
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:25 PM   #20
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I have a 10g that will be a quarantine and I don't know if parasites could survive on plants after cleaning the tank. I thought it would be bare bottom with plants in pots to reduce stress rather than have it be completely empty. Good idea?
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKRST View Post
For Flubendazole info, please read the second paragraph. Having fought the Camallanus worms, all I can say is ditto on the quarantine and prophylactic treatment for parasites. I used fenbendazole-dosed food for 5 days a week x 3 cycles and it worked after Levamisole did not. However, I ran my T5HOs the entire time I dosed Levamisole and that probably caused degradation of the medicine. One note - I think it's hard to actually overdose Levamisole, but I don't recommend experimenting too much!

Regarding Flubendazole - I had a Ph.D. in Bio/organic chemistry look over the molecular structure of Flubendazole. Based on the Flubendazole molecular structure, it doesn't dissolve in water (sort of). Qualitatively, not much/none appears to dissolve in water. However- while flubendazole does not appear to dissolve, small quantities do actually dissolve. This small amount of Flubendazole that dissolves is apparently enough to reach therapeutic levels in a tank. After some discussion regarding chemical kinetics (yeech), my colleague and I decided the best dosing method for a tank would probably be to add the Flubendazole powder or a slurry directly to a canister or HOB intake. That application traps the Flubendazole powder "grains" in the filter and helps dissolve them through the kinetic action of water continually flowing across the Flubendazole molecules.

Heat, alcohol, and Flubendazole - The manufacturers MSDS sheets on Flubendazole (that's Material Safety Data Sheets) indicate that Flubendazole is not soluble in water, but can be dissolved in MDSO and alcohol and by using heat.

MDSO- is a powerful solvent that should NEVER be used for this purpose. It will dissolve Flubendazole 100%, but if you get it on your skin, you will get an instant absorption of the dose, with potentially baaad results! It's also pointless to use DMSO or alcohol because as soon as you dump the MDSO mixture into the tank, the Flubendazole precipitates out of solution.

Alcohol - Like MDSO, the same thing happens when you dissolve in alcohol. It's safer for human skin contact, but once added to the tank, the Flubendazole will precipitate (come out of solution), that's what gives you the cloud effect as it's poured in. If the Flubendazole was truly dissolved you would not see any white cloud. Again, based on the chemical structure, we estimate a 30% solution of alcohol would be required (in the tank itself!) to keep the Flubendazole in solution. Talk about SWI (swimming while intoxicated ).

Heat - Heating Flubendazole to dissolve is probably not recommended. It may not hurt anything, but there is a part of the molecule that is heat-labile and will break off when heated, changing the molecule slightly. It may make the Flubendazole less effective or more effective, I don't know. Heating probably does make it dissolve more easily based on the molecular structure.

Long-term (very long term) storage of Flubendazole should take place at 0C to -80C based on manufacturers recommendations. Room temp should be fine for aquarists use, but make certain you keep the Flu powder dry and tightly sealed. It is hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs water from the atmosphere and will get lumpy and nasty over time if left exposed.

Hope this chemistry information is useful to folks. I'm not saying anyone needs to change what they are doing. I just wish I had know this chemistry info before I spent two solid days trying to dissolve Flu in water on a magnetic stir plate!

Note-there are variations of Flu produced that are modified to be more water soluble. Those "variations" of the molecule likely have different manufacturer or chemical names.
I'm not a chemist, but how can a powder that is hygroscopic not dissolve in water?
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Old 08-24-2011, 10:38 PM   #22
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Quote:
The treatment most miss all together is to WORM YOUR FISH! We treat our dogs, cats, pigs, horses, cows,,, the list is endless. But not our fish. Not anymore for this fish keeper.
I now start internally with all new fish and go from there.

Ive never done any QT with my fish, nor have I done any treatment for worms/parasites. BUT, I will from now on.

I recently had some issues with random fish deaths and they would begin with the fish not eating, getting lazy and seperating from the group. Sometimes they would grab a bite of food but spit it back out and move back away from the food. At the same time I had a few hydra showing up in my shrimp tank. So, I began treating with flubendazole for the hydra. I had some extra from the packet that I purchased and used it to treat my other tanks. Within a couple of days the fish that werent eating were back in the schools and eating like pigs. I havent had a dead fish since I treated the tanks.
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Old 08-25-2011, 03:28 AM   #23
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I meant to report something else in this thread about my experience. When I dosed the levamisole, I got rid of the worms, but 2 of my fish that were eating like pigs before, stopped eating. They just now started eating again today and it's been since august the 9th when I dosed. All the other fish have been ok.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:06 PM   #24
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I'm not a chemist, but how can a powder that is hygroscopic not dissolve in water?
That's something I wondered as well, and I'll ask my chemist colleague. It is noted on most of the FLU chemical data information that it's hygroscopic however!

ok - I checked with my chemist friend about the "hydroscopicity" of a molecule (Flu) that is not particularly soluble. The answer went over my head very quickly, but it has to do with the structure of the molecule, the way the compound is prepared by the manufacturer, and some other things I simply did not understand! Short answer is a molecule that is strongly hygroscopic (water absorbing) is usually water soluble. However, there are some molecular structures that attract water and are not particularly water soluble (like Flu).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradH View Post
I meant to report something else in this thread about my experience. When I dosed the levamisole, I got rid of the worms, but 2 of my fish that were eating like pigs before, stopped eating. They just now started eating again today and it's been since august the 9th when I dosed. All the other fish have been ok.
My cory's were the same way with the Levamisole regarding a reduced appetite and lethargy. No harm done and they perked up after a water change, but my Corys certainly seemed a little more sensitive to it than my angelfish.

Last edited by DKRST; 08-26-2011 at 05:45 PM.. Reason: Flu hygroscopic info
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:25 PM   #25
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WOW I am glad I buy from a reputable store that does this before she sells, or I would be out of this hobby..never Q.
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Old 09-22-2011, 02:37 PM   #26
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Bump.

Question for those with "stuff" in their quarantine tanks...(stuff meaning plants, gravel, other scape elements)

After your 30-45 day quarantine, assuming it was uneventful and you've moved the fish to the display, do you break down the tank and clean everything and reset up before quarantining a new batch?

Reason I ask, is that I'd like to add some algae/cleanup crew type fish to my tank....so I'm setting up a quarantine tank. If it all goes well, I'd like to then grow-up some smaller angels to eventually add to my main tank. I wondered if I needed to break down the tank between fish batches if everything was ok?
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Old 09-22-2011, 02:42 PM   #27
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I leave mine setup and only in case of ugly break it down.
Only once in 2 years have I felt the quarantine needed cleaning.
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Old 09-22-2011, 02:43 PM   #28
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I keep my 10g QT up and running. After treatment, there should not be any nasties left in the QT tank. I add plant trimmings, sometimes snails (the Flu kills MTS very quickly), and keep a couple of deformed guppies (too soft-hearted to cull) in the tank to keep it cycled and pleasantly decorated.

NOTE - I now also QT my plants after getting some unwanted snails introduced.
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Old 11-21-2011, 04:06 PM   #29
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This is from a thread I started a couple days ago. Op here suggested it be reposted in this thread in hopes of having an all-in-one QT thread. I agree, so...
*****************************

Maintaining a quarantine tank long term


I've always wondered about the best way to keep a quarantine tank running continuously with minimal power usage.

All that's needed to set one up once you have the need is a tank, filter and heater. Light would be nice but would depend on where the tank is located. If you wait until the need arises I've considered it somewhat counterproductive without a cycled filter to use. If your QT period is as long as it should be the tank would be ready for fish about the time the QT period is over.

For me, space to keep one running continuously isn't an issue. I have room in the garage and room at my business to keep it running. The cost of heating it though only to use it a few times a years has been my concern.

Keeping the bacteria colonies alive with a food source seems easy enough, just a pinch of food every once in a while. Temperature of an unheated tank had me wondering what would happen to those colonies.

Last week I asked these questions of Timothy A. Hovanec, Ph.D. via email. He's the owner of Dr. Tim's Aquatics and formerly of Marineland. I met him briefly about 15 years ago at Marineland's corporate office in Moorpark, CA when I was training for point of sale sales program they had. That was a fun job and I did that for several years.

Anyway, here's the conversation. I'll breakup my two-part question and his answers.

I explained the questions were regarding keeping a QT tank ready and I wrote...


> #1 food source to maintain at least minimal biologic activity. My
> thinking is an occasional pinch of flake food or whatever would
> solve that.

Dr. Tim's response...
Quote:
some fish food or a drop or two of ammonium chloride once in a
while. the bacteria do NOT die if not fed everyday (they are not
human) so periodic feeding keeps them going
I wrote...
> #2 temperature How important is temperature range? If you keep a
> quarantine tank in the garage in SoCal without heat it can still
> get down in to the 50's. When it comes time to make use of the
> tank, say at 77, how will that effect the viability of the
> bacteria? Is there a tighter temp range that we should aim for?
> Simple thing would be to just keep the tank warm but I prefer not
> to spin the power meter any faster than necessary.

Dr. Tim's response...
Quote:
As long as the water does not freeze being colder is actually better
for 'preserving' the bacteria because it slows them down. Think of
if this way - they are an energy cell with a capacity of X. The rate
they use up X is temperature dependent - the lower the temp the
slower they use X. But they can respond very fast - plug the heater
in and let the temperature rise into the 70's and they will start
working very fast. We did this with the old BioSpira - kept in a
refrigerator around 50 F at the store and then pour into the aquarium
around 75F and they go to work immediately.
I'll glad to see that with minimal ongoing cost I can maintain a tank that would be ready once it's brought out of hibernation in a short time.

Found this interesting and hopefully prevents some from bypassing a QT
period and risking all the other livestock. I know it's not possible for everyone.

But then maybe everyone but me already knew this. lol
*****************

Above from...
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fi...long-term.html
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Old 11-21-2011, 05:32 PM   #30
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Wkndracer,
Very interesting and informative thread. Thank you for the hard work that went into it.
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