Can we get to the bottom of GDA? Turns out the cause was BGA so check it out! - Page 3
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:23 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by fresh.salty View Post
Or maybe it's the impurities in the epsom salts and not the Mg.
What does this mean?
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Old 04-23-2011, 10:33 AM   #32
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I've never once stated that it was and have routinely stated that no method will meet every goal.

You stated the obvious and there's no conflict or dispute there.

I do not use EI on most of my own aquariums or even CO2, some I do. But even there it's modified.
Interesting. Off topic, but what do you use, Tom if not EI? And also, how far can you modify the EI method before it is no longer the EI method? Seems to me if you keep modifying something long enough, it is an entirely different animal. I'm curious on this. I see people saying they are doing the modified EI approach, but it just seems like other than just estimating, they aren't really following most of the guidelines and still crediting the success to the EI method. (Does this make sense to anyone or am I rambling again?)

However, since I do have GDA on my tank upstairs and do not use the EI method anymore due to shear laziness, I like the idea of trying Mg since it works well for me in my 55 gallon. I'll add Mg to the tank at the rates you suggest and report back. If it is truly Mg, it should be independent of all other variables, correct?

I always like to experiment even when I don't know what I am doing. So please explain further if I am misunderstanding anything before I get started.
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Old 04-25-2011, 05:47 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
GSA has a couple of variables, if the CO2 is good, then low PO4, if the PO4 is high, then poor CO2. So even high PO4 will not rule out GSA. I get it if the CO2 is poor, even with high PO4 dosing. PO4 is easier to rule out than CO2, which is arguably the most difficult and most lethal.

So from there, nutrients are managed easily, then light is measured, then this leaves CO2 as the single variable.

Much easier to figure out this way.

hmm... interesting enough though, my 10g where i don't have GSA, and I don't add additional PO4 to whatever is already availble in the tap water, does not have good CO2, I know this because I also have BBA, as well as my 4dKh drop check is only light green, whereas my 72G where I alwasy have GSA, i should have prenty of CO2, because I don't have any sign of BBA, and drop check is always yellow.
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Old 04-26-2011, 04:58 AM   #34
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I think GDA is a good indicator of a healthy environment as I always have great plant growth and coloration when I have GDA. Seems like that's the general consensus too. I don't really have any issues with GDA because in the whole scheme of all things algae it is by far the easiest one to deal with and would be my choice if I had to have one algae to deal with since it doesn't really effect the health of the plants in the tank.

I just think that collectively we might be able to put our heads together and find a singular point that we all have in out tanks with GDA and perhaps find the one (if mot more) main contributing factors to this problem

I purchased a bag of Epsom Salt from Walmart yesterday and according to Wet's calc dosed right around 8ppm to the tank by putting 3/8's tsp in the tank.

How often should I be dosing the salt? Every day (not likely), on Macro days (seems possible) or once a week?>
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Old 04-26-2011, 10:33 PM   #35
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PPS-Pro doses right with the macros. I would assume this is the same for EI.
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Old 04-26-2011, 11:01 PM   #36
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Any idea on how often I should be dosing the salt?
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Old 04-27-2011, 12:18 AM   #37
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What does this mean?
No clue WTH..........MgSO4 is food grade, not an issue.
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Old 04-27-2011, 12:23 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by darkoon View Post
hmm... interesting enough though, my 10g where i don't have GSA, and I don't add additional PO4 to whatever is already availble in the tap water, does not have good CO2, I know this because I also have BBA, as well as my 4dKh drop check is only light green, whereas my 72G where I alwasy have GSA, i should have prenty of CO2, because I don't have any sign of BBA, and drop check is always yellow.
Then attack and kill the algae, do water changes, provide good CO2, dosign etc.

This is not some impossible to replicate thing.
Most folks just overlook things, make assumptions(like their CO2 is perfect cough cough cough........), do not tend their tank as much as they need when there's an issue.

Once the tank is running stable and nice, it can handle a fair amount of abuse.

You are not going to do as well if you are sick etc.
You are not dead etc, but you are not optimal either.
If you start off healthy, you can handle a lot more abuse.

Same type of thing here.

Do we compare all these various levels and types of diseases/sickness or do we compare a healthy tank to start with????

The answer is rather obvious.

Only then can you do much testing, and even there, it might not be the least bit correct
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Old 04-27-2011, 12:47 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by darkoon View Post
hmm... interesting enough though, my 10g where i don't have GSA, and I don't add additional PO4 to whatever is already availble in the tap water, does not have good CO2, I know this because I also have BBA, as well as my 4dKh drop check is only light green, whereas my 72G where I alwasy have GSA, i should have prenty of CO2, because I don't have any sign of BBA, and drop check is always yellow.
Not to beat a dead horse or derail but no BBA doesnt mean you have good Co2. Or having BBA doesnt mean you dont have enough Co2. I have tanks of both. BBA/yellow checker, and no Co2 at all and no BBA. Just so thats clear for the newer folks looking into this thread. Since were trying to bust some myths and all
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Old 04-27-2011, 12:52 AM   #40
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Makes sense if you focus only on plant growth - as I know you propose. Mg could be limiting plant growth and giving GDA a foothold, I think the arguement goes. However, my plants always grew incredibly well during the GDA outbreaks and when I did scrape the glass I would see my overgrown jungle waiting for a trim. Didnt slow the algae growth.
Does not imply that there's a slight Mg limitation or not.

Plants still grow with various levels of limitations with all sorts of nutrients..........

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As we've seen with other types of algae, there are certain predictable water parameters that bring on certain types of algae. In my tank, if I let Nitrate drop below 5, I know I am going to start seeing BGA. No other types of algae appear. So, according to the plant growth focus, my plants must be growing more slowly and allowing algae to take hold - but why only BGA? Why dont they all come on at once at this point?
Why do we have more than one singe species of algae?

Quote:
To me, this supports very strongly the idea that, while healthy plant growth may inhibit algae, it cannot stop all types of algae. Also, there are certain nutrient threshholds that must be met for the ever present algae spores in our tanks to bloom into visible algae.
The nutrient centric thing has taken more and more folks down this path to myths than I care to count or recall over the years. FEW hobbyists have done good testing or research here. I'm none too confident.

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I know that plants dont know math and ratios are laughed at, but we do know that certain excesses of nutrients in the water column create plant deficiencies for other nutrients,
We do not know this. Name one.......that is the range we might see/experience in an aquarium.

I know of none. It is not like I have never looked either.

Quote:
even if the other nutrients are present in the water column. How then is it unreasonable then to think that certain levels of a nutrient in the water, relative to another nutrient would INHIBIT ALGAE GROWTH (not increase plant growth, inhibit algae growth - big difference)?
Errr..........cause it's easy to test a ratio and it is ALSO easy to test individual concentrations, and vary ratios all the place, but well beyond potentially limiting concentrations?

Been here, done this.
Refer back to Liebig.
Basic stuff, you are falling into the trap of wishful thinking here, not basic plant science/horticulture.

Quote:
Going one step further, how then would it be unreasonable to assume that a 'complex' relationship could exist that inhibits GDA?
See above.........no need to keep pushing for complexity when the basics are not understood or addressed, go for the low picked fruit 1st........then maybe...........once mastered, then folks can try to test the more complex relationships.

Generally by then, their level of horticulture is sufficient not to worry much about algae.

I'm curious myself, even if it does not present an issue for me. I like algae.

Quote:
Meaning, that GDA will not bloom unless there is an excess of Ca vs Mg OR an excess of N to P?
This sounds like mumbo that some folks believe and I have found zero evidence for support, both research and the aquarium settings with a control reference tank.

None.

You need to the control tank to see. No control, no test.
It's that simple, there has to be verification.

Quote:
In this case, changing and monitoring one variable at a time may never lead you to the result you want. Ie if your N and P ratio is put of whack and you are just adding Mg, you could get your Ca:Mg ratio inline, but becuase your N:P ratio is still of whack, your GDA does not go away. You declare your Mg theory debunked and go on to test N:P and your Ca:Mg drifts back to out of whack. You get your N:P ratio right, but stil GDA becuase you're no longer considering Ca:Mg.
Could be, but how do you plan to show this and back it up for each and every case?

I've gone all over the board with Ca/Mg and with NP ratios.

Mostly to illustrate that they are meaningless
Liebig showed this as well. I'm not going against that.

I just suspected Mg since it's one of those more forgetful neglected nutrients/folks rarely test etc, make assumptions about.

Quote:
More complicated still would be some combination of absolute minimum level and ratio (ie Ca:Mg must be no more than 3:1, N:P ratio at least 10:1, Ca no higher than 40ppm, and P no higher than .25 ppm in order to prevent GDA bloom, for example).
My Ca was 80ppm and my PO4 was 20X this, no issues.
Inoculated many times.
No GDA.

Likewise, I had 12ppm Ca and PO4 at 6=9ppm and no GDA.
Ratios?
How about 1:1 ratio for Ca:Mg?
Nothing
How about 20:1 Ca:Mg?
Nothing

I did not try limiting Mg strongly over time.

This stuff might take 8 weeks........or maybe only a few days to germinate.
It might be more with light and CO2.........

I do not believe the ratio baloney, I just have never found a hill of beans worth of evidence for support.

Light/CO2, definitely.
Limitation, certainly.........

Ratios?
Possible sure, evidence or test? None yet.

[quote]
Solution is to change and track multiple parameters through multiple ranges and see when you get GDA (maybe more even than just Ca, Mg, P, and N - I suggest these only because the MCI author proposed them based on his experience and they are the two i monitored and changed to eleviate my problem - could be more involved and i just got lucky). I suggest the reason we've not as a hobby solved this one while other algaes are more easily controlled is exactly becuase of some kind of complex relationship between the parameters that cause it.
[quote]

That guy is nut.
Have you seen his tanks? Ratty AND High light.
CO2?

There's no controls.

Quote:
Aside from somone taking a few weeks, and tracking all parameters through all ranges in a few quarantine tanks, we'll probably need to keep tinkering and collectively building a model. But one paramater at a time may not be the answer and focusing on strong plant growth as opposed to algae inhibition will only miss the mark.
It's worked a lot better than the other methods with multiple parameters.

Stepwise, careful progressions have led to a better understanding for BBA, BGA, GSA, Staghorn and others. Name one multiple that's done us any good?

I do not argue they do not exist, but rather, argue we should look at the assumptions more and see if we cannot first rule out the simple easy low picked fruit. Only then, consider more complex stuff.

If you lack the fundamentals, how are you going to handle the complex?
Seems like getting ahead of one's self.

I have gone all over the place with ratios and dosing various things, I cannot rule out a few things and Mg happens to be one. I would not expect results in a week, maybe 2-4 weeks time........Then that might give an indication.

If the CO2, or other issues are present...then this might not work.
As the case with many folks, there's no control.

Bsmith's tank and plants I have some background with. So seeing if it's just Mg.....not a bad idea.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:20 AM   #41
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So Tom, how about letting me know when I should dose this salt. Thus far I have only dosed it once.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:28 AM   #42
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Juat my opinion on dosing Mg, but since it's one of the main constituents in GH boosters which are usually dosed weekly with a water change I would think it would be dosed once per week.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:52 AM   #43
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Use 3 times a week when you dose micro or macro...use the calculator provided by Tom. Divide total quantity by 3 or 2 if you want that way...I do 3X easy to remember...you all set...you will notice change in a week or 2...
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:19 PM   #44
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So Tom, how about letting me know when I should dose this salt. Thus far I have only dosed it once.
I'd mix with the trace after wards, but for now, I'd dose 2-3x a week.

the other thing, recovery sometimes can take 1-3 weeks till the plants bounce back. So called, plant growth "momentum". Once that is going well, then few algae are ever an issue, GDA as well.

So water changes, good CO2, tweak that some, dose Mg etc......and the other things you have been........
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:27 PM   #45
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Use 3 times a week when you dose micro or macro...use the calculator provided by Tom. Divide total quantity by 3 or 2 if you want that way...I do 3X easy to remember...you all set...you will notice change in a week or 2...
+1
Whoops, did not see this......

Yes, many expect immediate responses........I think 3 weeks is often the time frame where for most herb like weeds, we should see responses.

I wonder if the GH booster recipe might be revised some if there's more to it.
The other thing is to add MgSO4 to the Trace mixes........like PMDD suggested.

It maybe that stem filled tanks are more needy in terms of Mg.
Or.........Mg might have nothing to do with it.

The only way to really know, if to be able to consistently induce and grow, germinate GDA........otherwise, there's no reference. Since no one(at least yet) can do this, it shall remain speculation, even if Mg fixes anyone's issues with algae. Still, by focusing on plant health generally.........this improves the aquarist abilities and rules potential issues out.

Then algae has a harder time. Nice well done aquariums without algae can be done for many years and maintained. There is no special nutrient trick, it is all about the plants.
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