Spray bar with 2 canister filters?
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Old 04-02-2010, 08:02 PM   #1
Guns286
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Spray bar with 2 canister filters?


I plan on making a 45"L, 3/4" clear PVC spraybar, to run vertically along the rear, top of my 75g tank. I dont think the water comming out of my one canister filter (Fluval 405) will have enough GPH to go the length of the spray bar. My thought is to add a second canister filter, with close to the same GPH rate as the Fluval, and run each filter output to opposite sides of the spray bar.That way, a more even distribution of water will be "sprayed" into the tank.

My first question is, do you think this will work? As far as the hole sizes, along the length of the spray bar, I realize finding the right size will be trial and error (1/4", 1/2", 3/4", etc.). But, I mean the concept itself. Will it work.

My second question is, assuming it will work, once the filter outputs are hooked up the their respective ends of the spray bar, am I going to have a problem priming them? It seems like, when I prime one, It will possible force water into the output of the other. Would I prime both at the same time?

My third question is, what if one filter has a higher GPH output then the other? Not to much higher. Like, say 60 to 70 GPH. Will that create a problem when the two opposing forces of water meet in the spray bar?

Thanks for any help you can give me.
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Old 04-02-2010, 08:26 PM   #2
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I think I would just have 2 separate spray bars, or perhaps split it down the middle with a divider. Building a spray bar is pretty easy and I see alot of people over think the holes and diameter of the tube. Just make up whatever you want and the water will come out. The smaller and fewer the holes, the more pressure it will come out with. I would start out with some really small holes spaced evenly, then just go from there. If it seems like the pressure is to high or more than you are comfortable with, make more holes or bigger holes.
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Old 04-02-2010, 08:30 PM   #3
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You should use a diameter of pipe slightly larger than the ID of the return line. I think the 05 series fluval use 3/4 ID hose, so you'll want 7/8 OD pvc or close to fit snug in the hose. I would space the holes 1-2 inches apart and use a marker to trace a straight line down the PVC. given an area of about 0.60132 inches squared, and the area of your drill bit is 0.01227 inches squared, you should use 45 1/8 holes in a 7/8 PVC tube for a slight pressure increase within the spray bar... pi times radius2 equals area of a circle. I would only use one canister... but you will need a longer spray bar of at least 63"... or a bigger drill bit...
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Old 04-02-2010, 08:33 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcdudley View Post
I think I would just have 2 separate spray bars, or perhaps split it down the middle with a divider. Building a spray bar is pretty easy and I see alot of people over think the holes and diameter of the tube. Just make up whatever you want and the water will come out. The smaller and fewer the holes, the more pressure it will come out with. I would start out with some really small holes spaced evenly, then just go from there. If it seems like the pressure is to high or more than you are comfortable with, make more holes or bigger holes.
Poor advice dude! This is not a guessing a game. It is a math equation with a definite solution.
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Old 04-02-2010, 08:43 PM   #5
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If it works out, do a tutorial for us.
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Old 04-02-2010, 08:46 PM   #6
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My thoughts...

Two spray bars if you have two filters. It will be easier to control and easier to do maintenance. I'm not sure my Rena's disconnect could handle the pressure if one was disconnected and the other still running. I think the opposing forces at the center of the pipe will increase head pressure and reduce flow. Might not be much more than a hard 90 but some loss anyway.

Not all holes should be drilled in a straight line since you may want to direct flow to a different area based on where you plants are inline with the output.

Paint the PVC or use gray.

IMO this question can't be determined via mathematical equations and lucky for you PVC is cheap. lol

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Old 04-02-2010, 08:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
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IMO this question can't be determined via mathematical equations and lucky for you PVC is cheap. lol

SteveU
Explain how the surface area of a circle can not be divided by the surface area of a smaller circle and tell you how many holes will fit into the larger circle???????????????

Also if you reduce the number of smaller circles(holes) within the larger circle, the voided area would increase the pressure in the bar.

Holes in a straight line are by far easier to control the circulation within a confined area.

Simple math!
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Old 04-02-2010, 09:14 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler79durdan View Post
Explain how the surface area of a circle can not be divided by the surface area of a smaller circle and tell you how many holes will fit into the larger circle???????????????


Simple math!
Determining the optimal number of holes to deliver the desired pressure isn't the same as how many you can jamb in there.

Quote:
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Holes in a straight line are by far easier to control the circulation within a confined area.
I'll just have to disagree if that's OK. I have two spray bars, one of each end of the tank. One has one hole pointing up at the surface just enough to ripple the surface. Three holes toward the front are pointing down towards the substrate. Three holes towards the back are pointed more at the side wall to help defuse the pressure so it rolls back at the bottom to supply the stems along the back wall. The other end has something similar but I needn't go into the particulars to make my point to the OP.

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Old 04-02-2010, 09:19 PM   #9
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Lot of good advice. Tyler, mathamatics can probable figure out anything. Unfortunatly, my 4 year old is better at math then I am. So, I'm going to need you to explain it to me as if you're explaining it to a child.
Other then that, it seems like my 2 choices are splitting the spraybar in half and using 2 filters, or one long spraybar and 1 filter. What if I split the return from the Fluval and run each into the opposite ends of the spraybar? Would'nt that help with a more even distribution? Then I could reduce or increase the size/amount of holes, in order to regulate water flow.
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Old 04-02-2010, 09:27 PM   #10
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From what you're saying it's sounds like you want more or better circulation. I think a surefire way of getting that is adding another canister. I couldn't get what I wanted for my 90g with a single XP3 and I don't care for powerheads in the tank.

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Old 04-02-2010, 10:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post
Determining the optimal number of holes to deliver the desired pressure isn't the same as how many you can jamb in there.



I'll just have to disagree if that's OK. I have two spray bars, one of each end of the tank. One has one hole pointing up at the surface just enough to ripple the surface. Three holes toward the front are pointing down towards the substrate. Three holes towards the back are pointed more at the side wall to help defuse the pressure so it rolls back at the bottom to supply the stems along the back wall. The other end has something similar but I needn't go into the particulars to make my point to the OP.

SteveU
Ok, I agree to disagree

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post
From what you're saying it's sounds like you want more or better circulation. I think a surefire way of getting that is adding another canister. I couldn't get what I wanted for my 90g with a single XP3 and I don't care for powerheads in the tank.

SteveU
+1 on the second canister, but make two spray bars.

Give my the inside diameter of the tube(bar) and the desired length, and I will tell you how many holes to put in the bar, and bigger holes does not regulate flow... thats what the aqua-stop does.

You HAVE to have an increase in line pressure within the bar to get each of the holes to deliver an equal stream/jet of water.

I guess you should also decide if you want a staggered hole pattern as Steve suggests, or a straight line as ALL spray manufactures use. This is a matter of experience and opinion.

I have made numerous spray bars, and ALL of them have had required pressure to flow almost max canister flow rates, and still have VERY even streams from each hole using a simple math equation.
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Old 04-03-2010, 12:11 AM   #12
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Figure 2, 21" long spray bars. I'm getting 3/4", clear, Schedule 40, PVC pipe with an ID of .824
I'll run them vertically, along the back, top of the tank. I planned on making the holes in a streight line.
OK professor, what do you think
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Old 04-03-2010, 02:21 PM   #13
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The professor has taken leave. I'm hoping our little discussion and differences in opinion had nothing to do with that, seriously. If everyone thought the same and did things the same way keeping a tank would be like painting by numbers.

Those differences are what keeps it interesting. JMO

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Old 04-04-2010, 03:19 PM   #14
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Default Ugh! I hate math.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guns286 View Post
Figure 2, 21" long spray bars. I'm getting 3/4", clear, Schedule 40, PVC pipe with an ID of .824
I'll run them vertically, along the back, top of the tank. I planned on making the holes in a straight line.
OK professor, what do you think
"tyler79durdan; You HAVE to have an increase in line pressure within the bar to get each of the holes to deliver an equal stream/jet of water."

This is valid flow/back pressure information. Without a slight loss of free flow volume the end of the tube will see less discharge through the bar holes.
"tyler79durdan; pi (3.14) times radius2 equals area of a circle"

Using 3/4" id pvc I came up with a different number. (.44156)
Using 1/8 drill bit (calculation +- rounding error same as tyler79durdan) at .01227 = 35.987 or 36 holes needed to equal the total area of the spray bar inlet to total outlet.

So using 35 - 1/8" holes and allowing for a slight back pressure (less discharge then inlet volume) 21" pipe less 1" (for hose clamping 1/2" and 1/2" end capping) 20"/35 = one hole every 1/2" +- at one every .57".

Whether the holes are drilled inline or rotated around the bar in different directions would make no difference as area volume in still equates to total area volume out.
Using a larger drill bit would mean less holes and increased spacing between them.

I hope what I've typed out make sense in the post because the math is valid in a very basic flow calculation.
LOL garbage in always equals garbage out minus the frictional loss as the poo goes around the corners.

http://www.mathgoodies.com/lessons/v...rcle_area.html
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Old 04-04-2010, 06:01 PM   #15
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Default To all the math whizzes out there

Don't forget boundary layer effects. Because of increased turbulence and drag at the edge of the hole or tube you can not determine this stuf by the area of the hole alone.

One 1 inch tube will carry more flow than four 1/2 inch pipes because of this. The amount of this differnce depends on the density and viscousity of the fluid, so it would be more pronounced in salt water than fresh. It turns out not to be such a simple math problem. If anyone still wants to do the math, I have my fluid mechanics text books from university for sale.

I'd go with the start with holes smaller than you think you will need and work up from there method.
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