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S. Repens issues, leaves turn clear. Pics

21K views 183 replies 21 participants last post by  Diogoreis 
#1 ·
Hi guys,

I'm having an issues with this plants leaves turning clear/melting and it sometimes kills the whole stem. The tank is a 12 long, planted plus led, EI dosing, Co2. Everything else grows well in this tank. HC, hygro kompakt, AR mini, lindernia India, limnophilia vietnam, and a couple other stem plants I don't have an ID on.

The repens has been doing this for almost 2 months. It's a mixture of stems from another hobbyists tank and also some tissue cultured, but both have been doing it from the start of adding them, the tc stuff was even added weeks after the others. I recently hacked it all back and left just a couple leaves per stem, but it's still doing this. Any new leaves that grow either get this right away or soon after. I know this plant should be easy, but I'm not sure if I'm just missing something or if I just need to wait more. Below are some pics.

Plant Terrestrial plant Groundcover Grass Flowering plant
Plant Terrestrial plant Organism Groundcover Flowering plant

Plant Houseplant Terrestrial plant Groundcover Flower
 

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#56 ·
Mine grew well for about a week or two before they started showing this condition. No change in the plant when the co2 was upped. I'll get a shot tonight. It has a Fluval 206 ( just mechanical and bio media), output on the left side and a 100gph power head on the right side making a big swirl.
 
#63 ·
Yeah the intake is in the bottom left, output is above it and pushes towards the other side. Not what I wanted but it's what I can do, better than a HOB. Yes that's the power head on the right. The carpeting plant is dwarf baby tears. They are still growing great, but the hair algae just grows in them and is very hard to get out. That's really the only place I have the hair algae.
 
#64 · (Edited)
In regards to the algae, thats due to low Co2. Good luck with the green hair algae, its the worst.

I just spent some time re-reading the different posts from this thread to draw some inferences/summary on our issue thus far. So if s.repens is a low CO2 demanding/growing plant and we are cranking our CO2 to about 60-70ppm there should be no CO2 deficiencies. Since we both use inline atomizers we can physically see the CO2 getting distributed throughout the tank and other low growing plants are healthy. When it comes to the substrate, we both use eco-complete and have tried O+ root tabs. I want to rule the substrate out because plenty of people grow carpets with this plant in Eco at similar light levels with no issues. I am also inclined to rule out ferts since we both are using E.I. (or in my case a little less) and therefore nutrients are non-limiting (and combine with the melt of new plants after 3 days).

I still find the oxygen thing interesting, since pointing my spray bar up and running my surface skimmer 24/7 it is much harder to hit a yellow DC. I think we should both try to manipulate unique independently the potential remaining variable until one of us finds the solution.
 
#68 ·
I don't think ether of us has anything at "stupid high" levels. I'm well within safe levels of ferts and co2 and I think bcarl is as well. I'm gonna keep going as I have been because I'm starting to see better growth. I will add the surface skimmer that should be on its way from ups.
 
#69 ·
I don't think ether of us has anything at "stupid high" levels. I'm well within safe levels of ferts and co2 and I think bcarl is as well.
So if s.repens is a low CO2 demanding/growing plant and we are cranking our CO2 to about 60-70ppm.....
If bcarl's CO2 really does get up as high as 70 ppm, I think you would agree that is pretty damn high.
 
#70 ·
Firstly, hobbyist's measurements are always approximations; the machine needed to get an accurate CO2 reading costs upwards of $1000 - You can google Tom barr's posts on this.

Secondly, many people have tested using very high CO2 levels - and negative plant reaction in such cases where nutrient dosing has been up-kept is virtually zero. Carbon is the limiting factor in most tanks - the lack of it causes far more problems. It's excess is usually only related to one aquarium problem; fish & other livestock death.

The main problem with analysis at the hobbyist level is tunnel vision - caused by trying to relate plant reaction to variables that there are test kits for. I.e. Everything is caused by lack of or toxicity of nutrients. Thousands of tanks, run on EI and high CO2, but the differences in growth and plant quality is often day and night. Some people get algae, some don't as well. There are many other factors at play than just nutrients.

CO2 and flow accounts for a very large dark area, because they can't be measured as precisely. If one uses oddly shaped aquascapes sometimes flow/lighting is an issue. Substrates can have a large impact, but people generally ignore it because it's hard to analyse - so they go with the idea that someone else has well-grown tanks with a similar substrate so it should work for me; one wonders why we don't apply this concept to EI as well.

Our pruning & planting techniques matter also; but this is hardly discussed. KH flux does have an impact on plants, unlike pH flux - that's why I pointed out limestone in bcarl_10gal 's tank. But it doesn't matter if you do water changes regularly because it evens out the effect of rising KH.

I haven't offered any clear answers, but at least by ruling out stuff that has been tested over the years (even scientifically if you read the papers on barr report), We can focus on other variables rather than get trapped in the tunnel vision of the same few variables; which I'm sure you guys have changed around plenty to no avail.
 
#71 ·
The positive reaction from upping the CO2 in my tank cannot be ignored. It has been 20 days since the CO2 adjustment. I've seen my AR mini un stunt and actually propagate. Also my purple cabomba is growing like a weed. The s.repens in the pictures I've posted above was the best its looked in the past 6 months. The question is why on earth did it melt again..... That my friends is the $1,000,000 question!

I am getting some new S.repen stems this week. I am very curious to see how they will react to my tank.
 
#78 ·
Why are the roots exposed in that last pic?
S Repens is actually a stem plant, so exposed roots aren't that big a deal.

I am considering going back to a PPS-pro style method because at this point why not. Maybe we are both just over fertilizing.
Going from overwhelming excess to very lean probably isn't necessary. If it were me, I would split the difference to half-dosed EI, dial back to CO2 to an easy 20-30 ppm, and ease back a touch on the lights.
 
#74 · (Edited)
I would agree that we can't grow ALL plants, but i used to have a thick carpet FULL of this stuff and had more plants than I knew what to do with.

The roots are not "exposed" there were leaves there before they melted off and the plant was sending out roots because there were some side shoots starting, then it melted... again...

The pH is about 6.5, water without CO2 is around 7.4.
 
#75 ·
Ah gotcha, so it systematically died back to what you have now. Gotcha on the aerial roots too. Sometimes it's easier to look at the simple things, don't be offended.
Check this out:

Maybe you have a "too much of one thing effecting uptake of another" type situation going on?
 
#76 ·
Hi guys,

I'm having an issues with this plants leaves turning clear/melting and it sometimes kills the whole stem. The tank is a 12 long, planted plus led, EI dosing, Co2. Everything else grows well in this tank. HC, hygro kompakt, AR mini, lindernia India, limnophilia vietnam, and a couple other stem plants I don't have an ID on.

The repens has been doing this for almost 2 months. It's a mixture of stems from another hobbyists tank and also some tissue cultured, but both have been doing it from the start of adding them, the tc stuff was even added weeks after the others. I recently hacked it all back and left just a couple leaves per stem, but it's still doing this. Any new leaves that grow either get this right away or soon after. I know this plant should be easy, but I'm not sure if I'm just missing something or if I just need to wait more. Below are some pics.
A chart for you.
View attachment 451050 View attachment 451058
View attachment 451074
 

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#79 ·
With 20-30 ppm of CO2 I had stunted growth and plants were still melting. Under higher CO2 I have no stunting of other plants, with ideal growth and the plants still melt but overall tank health is better. Too much CO2 is just not the answer, its also been documented like Dennis said.
 
#84 ·
What I'd like to see is what happens when you take some rich black soil for house plants (which definitely has all the nutrients in it), add it to a plastic container, add some of your substrate on top to cap it and keep the soil in place, then plant a few species in it, set it somewhere in your tank and see how they grow over a few weeks.

If this is a nutrient deficiency then only the plants in the container will grow perfectly and show no damage.

If it is a toxicity then they will keep growing badly along with all your other plants.

Either way, you will have a better idea of the next set of steps you should take.
 
#85 ·
I really like this idea, if the plant grows well we can also say that the lack of nutrients could be the issue. Will any black potting soil work? Also when we submerge the container the cap will prevent the soil from floating and releasing contaminants?

Crimson do you want to try this? or should we both give it a go?
 
#86 ·
Yes it should eliminate or greatly reduce any kind of soil or dust that escapes the container. It is a nice way to grow plants especially if you don't want to redo your entire tank with soil.

Most soil types will work. I've found the best suited ones are the ones that are not purely made from organics like compost and chicken waste (aka, miracle grow is not the best suited for aquatic plants). I personally like Scott's Premium topsoil but this may be a regional brand. Its the kind of soil you get for $2 to $3 for a 50 pound bag at home depot.

I forgot to mention that 1.5 inches deep is about where you want to have the soil, with a 1 to 1.5 inch cap.
 
#88 ·
I can try to wrangle a way. My tank is tiny, but I can find a really small container. Fwiw I have stems of the s repens from my tank in miracle grow in my emersed box (which only gets indirect natural light) and it grows just fine.
In the tank today my surface skimmer came in so I added it. Made quite a difference so far by pulling any build up off the surface.
Here's a pic of my emersed box.
Plant Terrestrial plant Grass Groundcover Flowering plant
 
#89 ·
I don't recommend miracle grow in general for underwater use. Emersed it is not quite as bad. The issue is it has a lot of ammonia in it which can burn sensitive aquatic plant leaves. It might not make a big difference using a small container of the stuff compared with carpeting your entire tank like some people do in a soil tank.
 
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