The Planted Tank Forum banner

Metering(needle) valves selection for our CO2 pressurized system

124K views 336 replies 65 participants last post by  rajdude 
#1 · (Edited)
Post this just want to give some more options on choosing the right metering valves for our DIY CO2 rig build.
please post a picture of the metering valve if you are the lucky guy have one of the valves from the bottom of the list.

also in this thread.
*Solenoid valves selection
*Adjust bubble rate.



Metering/needle vales, Cv (flow coefficient) under 0.1 only


Swagelok 20 series needle valve, soft seat stem. Part number SS(B)-20R*
Orifice: 0.08"
Cv: 0.09 (at 2.5 turn full open)

Swagelok O series needle valve, soft seat stem. Part number SS(B)-OR*
Orifice: 0.08"
Cv: 0.09 (at 8 turn full open)

Pneumadyne (Pneumatic Control System), 700 series needle valve, Part number: C070301/C070501/C070601, made in UK
Thanks to kevmo911, who shine the light on this 700 series needle valve and present the .pdf data
Orifice: N/A
Cv: 0.09 (at 12 turn full open)

SMC AS2000 series needle valve, Part number: AS2???-*
Orifice: N/A
Cv: N/A ( At 4 turn SCFM is 0.88 SCFM, after 4 turn flow rate spike)

Clippard MNV-3/4 series needle valve, part number MNV-3* , MNV-4*
Orifice: 0.07"(MNV-3), 0.067"(MNV-4)
Cv: N/A (at 4 turn SCFM is 1, Cv is under 0.03 before 4 turns, after 4 turns, Cv spike)
owned

Ideal valve 52(brass)/54(stainless steel)--2 series, Part number 52-2-*, 54-2-*
Orifice: 0.0625"
Cv: 0.082 (at 20 turn, 22-24 turn full open)
owned

Hoke 2300 series metering valve, 8 degree angle stem
Orifice: 0.062"
Cv: 0.075 (at 20 turn full open)
owned

Parker Hannifin NM series, Part number *-NM?-*-*-*-*
Orifice: N/A
Cv: 0.055 (at 14 turn full open)
owned

Fabco NV55/FC55 needle valve, Part number NV-55, NV-55-18, FC-55
Orifice: N/A
Cv: N/A (approximately at 0.04, The SCFM is 1.7 at 10 turn full open, fully open flow rate similar to swagelok 31 series, actual lower flow control precision is similar or better than swagelok M series metering valves)
owned

SMC AS1000 Series needle valve, Part number AS120?-*
Orifice: N/A
Cv: N/A (approximately at 2.83 SCFM at 10 turn, but the flow curve is concaved, at 4.5 turn is 0.71 SCFM compare to NV-55 which is 0.95+ SCFM at 4.5 turn.
owned

Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 5, Part number: *-H5?-*-*-*
Orifice:N/A
Cv: 0.049 (at 15 turn full open)
owned

Parker Hannifin NS series, Part number *-NS?-*-*-*
Orifice: N/A
Cv: 0.042 (at 14 turn full open)
owned

Swagelok 31 series metering valve, Part number SS(B)-31R*
Orifice: 0.062"
Cv: 0.04 (at 10 turn full open)
(Tested, Orifice is too big, at low turn doesn't work well, avoid it)
owned

Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 4, Part number: *-H4?-*-*-*
Orifice:N/A
Cv: 0.032 (at 15 turn full open)

Swagelok Belows-sealed metering valve, Part number SS-4BMG, SS-4BMW(weld port)
Orifice: N/A
Cv: 0.019 (at 6 turn full open)
(Tested, Orifice is too big, at low turn doesn't work well)
owned

Swagelok M series metering valve, Part number SS(B)-?MG*, SS(B)-?MA*
Orifice: 0.056"
Cv: 0.03 (at 9 turn full open)
double pattern, dual handle
Cv: 0.026 ( at 9 turn full open)
(a lot of the swagelok M series that we can obtain are used with damaged/partially damaged stems, or older models Nupro M series, the precision lower than the new, so choose wisely)
owned

Ham-Let HF1300 series metering valve, 3 degree stem angle, Part number HF13??-*-*
Orifice: 0.055"
Cv: 0.03 (at 11 turn full open)

Fujikin UN series metering valve, L mark on top of the vernier handle, made in Japan
Orifice: 1.8MM
Cv: 0.03 (at 14 turn full open)
owned

Hoke Millimite 1300 series metering vale, 3 degree angle stem.
Orifice: 0.047"
Cv: 0.024 ( at 18 turn full open)
owned

Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 3, Part number: *-H3?-*-*-*
Orifice:N/A
Cv: 0.021 (at 15 turn full open)
owned

Fujikin High Pressure series metering valve, Part number: N/A, made in Japan
Orifice: 1.6MM
Cv: 0.017 (at 12 turn full open)

Fujikin UN/DUN series metering valve, made in Japan
Orifice: 1.5MM
Cv: 0.015 (at 14 turn full open)

Ideal valve 52(brass)/54(stainless steel)--1 series, Part number 52-1-*, 54-1-*
Orifice: 0.0313"
Cv: 0.019 (at 20 turn, 22-24 turn full open, approximate Cv 0.008 -0.009 at 10 turn)
owned

Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 2, Part number: *-H2?-*-*-*
Orifice:N/A
Cv: 0.014 (at 15 turn full open)
owned

Swagelok 21/22 series metering valve, Part number: *-21???-*, *-22???-*,
These are the mystery discontinued swagelok precision low flow control valve, and thanks to kevmo911, who shine the light on the 21/22 series and present the .pdf data.
Orifice: 0.02"
Cv: 0.007 (at 8 turn full open)
owned(TESTED! Due to the small orifice and long needle stem of this valve, the actual CV/turn and flow rate at low turn is a real small number, 0.1 bubble adjustment is possible on JBJ bubble counter)
Kevmo911 is the hero to bring this metering valve back to life...

Hoke Millimite 1300 series metering vale, 1 degree angle stem.
Orifice: 0.047"
Cv: 0.011 ( at 18 turn full open)
owned

Hoke 2300 series metering valve, 1 degree angle stem
Orifice: 0.062"
Cv: 0.01 (at 20 turn full open )
(Tested, Orifice is too big, at low turn doesn't work well)
owned

Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 1, Part number: *-H1?-*-*-*
Orifice:N/A
Cv: 0.007 (at 15 turn full open)

Fujikin PUN series metering valve, made in Japan
Orifice: N/AMM
Cv: 0.004 (at 10 turn full open)

Swagelok S series metering valve, Part number SS(B)-SS* , SS(B)-SM*
Orifice: 0.032"
Cv: 0.004 (at 10 turn full open)
double pattern, dual handles
Cv: 0.001 ( at 10 turn full open)
owned

Ham-Let HXF1300 series metering valve, 1 degree stem angle, Part number HXF13??-*-*
Orifice: 0.03"
Cv: 0.004 (at 11 turn full open)

Hoke Micromite 1600 series metering valve.
Orifice: 0.031"
Cv: 0.0008 (at 18 turn full open)
owned

Parker Hannifin HR series, Stem type 0, Part number: *-H0?-*-*-*
Orifice:N/A
Cv: 0.0004 (at 15 turn full open)
All Parker HR Series valves, the valve cartridge and the valve body are inter-changeable.
owned

Brooks instrument Extremely low flow NRS needle control valve, Model 8503, 8504, 8513, 8514.
This metering valve is the same design(non rising stem) as Parker Hannifin HR series, and same as Parker HR series, low CV for extremely low flow control.
8503, angle pattern, normal handle
8504, straight(inline) pattern, normal handle
8513, angle pattern, digital handle
8514, straight(inline) pattern, digital handle
stem type Cv.
type 6, CV: 0.052
type 5, CV: 0.017
type 4, CV: 0.0057
type 3, CV: 0.0013
type 2, CV: 0.00066
type 1, CV: 0.00029
owned

Chell Ultra-Fine Mechanism Needle Valve, needle 1 model, Made in UK
Orifice: N/A
Cv: N/A
(The lowest flow rate valve I know, for our application. 20 turn full open. Max flow rate is 20 SCCM(standard cubic centimeter per minute), which is 0.02 liter per minute at full open, 145psi pressure differential. Listed price: $500+, manufacture handling/shipping: $115, Total cost to get it in the us $600+.)
owned.

Vacoa valve
0-1.8CC, the spaceship valve, flow rate too low, not for our fish tank.
owned


Please let me know if you see any other metering valves that not here and can be used in our DIY CO2 pressurized system.




what solenoid do you want to use?

Clippard solenoid(MME-2SDS-*), and Burkert 6011 solenoid are the most commonly seen in our application, they are 1/8" NPT ports and ready to fit pipe fittings.
but they are 6.5 watt and 4 watt power consumption and create a lot of heat for 8 hours on, also, the fluid media(CO2) flow is never fast enough to draw away the heat. The heat, creates core melting, metal(spring) fatigue, cracked O-ring problems, and shorten the lives of these valves.
Burkert is a tag better because it is 4 watt and create less heat than a Clippard(MME-2SDS-*).
Parker Skinner B series 1/8" NPT ports solenoid valves(6 watt, 7 watt) are not that common, but actually better, because they are full metal body, faster heat dispatch than the said Clippard and the Burkert.
Parker Skinner C series solenoid valves are even better, 1/8" NPT ports, full metal body and only 2 or 3 watt power consumption, but hard to find one.
The clippard mouse solenoid is the best I know so far, only 0.67 watt power consumption and designed for low flow applications(that is our setups), 1 billion official on/off cycle life, full metal body, doesn't even feel warm when operate. But this valve is not 1/8" NPT ports ready, need adapters or sometimes, need some metal working to make them connect to pipe fittings.

These solenoid valve are all high quality industrial valves, they all have on/off cycle lives that is not less than 100 million. Failed solenoid are commonly seem in our applications because the way we use it, for at least 7 hours on and the fluid is not be able to take away the heat. Constantly heated/overheated condition shorten the lives of solenoid valves and fail them.
So whichever creates less heat(less power consumption) wins.


How to adjust the bubble rate.
For no pressure in the post body system start up.
1. set the output pressure of the regulator at 30-50 psi.
2. close all needle valves, turn on the solenoid.
3. open the needle valve, slowly, monitor the bubble rate, every time you turn the needle valve, wait 20 seconds or longer, depends on how long the tubing from the needle valve to the diffuser, the longer the tubing, the longer time you need to wait. stop when the desire bubble rate reach.
4. (this step omitted if using a reactor-no backward pressure)wait until the diffuser starts cracking out bubbles, then wait 20 minutes.
5. Adjust the needle valve again, 20 seconds or longer waiting time each time you turn the needle valve, once the desire bubble rate reach, stop.
6. let the system run for half an hour.
7A. if there is no change of bubble rate after half an hour, you can lock the locking handle of the needle valve(for SMC AS1200 needle valve), and it is all done.
7B. if there is no signification change of the bubble rate, repeat step 5 and 6.
7C. if there is significant change of the bubble rate after half an hour, use soapy water leak check the system, from the outlet of the regulator to the diffuser(if no leak, what is the needle valve you use?:))
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The Metering(Needle) Valve Selection for CO2 Pressurized System
Complete Leak check, Double Stage Regulator Pressurized system
 
See less See more
1
#149 ·
don't worry, you are fine if you get many, because you build for the hobbyists and stand behind your product. And most important of all, with the build quality of your systems, I am sure your extra charge on top of the parts cost is reasonable.
 
#147 ·
I controlled myself and just got one, but was seriously thinking about 3 (in total). W
Not to resell, like this:

- great deal, have to buy one even though I haven't actually decided if I want to inject co2
- but what if I do build it and really like it, I'll want it on the other tank too right? I should get two!
- what if something breaks or I build another tank, don't I need a spare? Get 3!

then I stopped myself, this is nuts- $90 of 'i might use this someday'? Just get one and be happy!
 
#151 ·
it is understandable if you get two, it is really a good deal and better to get one as extra, for later use.
but stock large quantity to resell is not good, other hobbyists have to pay more if the low price available valves are depleted.

I do get some Parker metering valves, same source where the current evil bay seller got them from, but I don't sell the metering valve because they are for the systems that I am going to build...
 
#157 ·
there are a lot of hobbyists got the Parker H3L metering valves now, and the good quality solenoid, the burkert 2822 is available, that leaves last major component, the double stage regulator to the last of the task, expect crush :p
 
#165 ·
I really like the size and looks of the mouse solenoid+manifold that I got from Bettatail.

Why Burkert 2822 is such a big deal? What am I missing here?
The BIN price on Burkert 2822 is now $39.95, btw.
 
#170 ·
Um, he's been over-exited recently, maybe he got his gases mixed up? ;)

Yes, good price, etc etc but I'm not getting that warm feeling... Besides the rarity and price, what are the practical differences? It opens, it closes, it opens again lol. Do please educate me. Thx!

What going through my head is:

A woman will spend a $1 on a $2 item she does not need.
A man will spend $2 on a $1 item he needs.​
 
#167 ·
it is really good.
I think I need to let people know because large amount available, low price and I've been looking for this solenoid valve for longer than a year.
normally I don't give out information on what solenoids to pick up, because they are expensive and are really hard to come by, if certain models of solenoid are well known and have been targeted, my chance to get one is zero.
The burkert 2822 is not the case here, It is really rare and expensive, but just too many available at this time, and I did get some of them before I let the hobbyists know, with this large amount everyone will have a chance to get one, why not?
 
#169 ·
Here's a question for the experienced guys, is there any benefit to putting this nice, high quality needle valve after a so-so paintball or regulator setup? Space really is an issue on both my tanks - the mini paintball regulators really would help with that.

You can't run any co2 tank/system on it's side, can you?
 
#175 · (Edited)
#176 · (Edited)
#177 ·
I just received one of these Parker H3L valves and I have to say that I'm impressed by the apparent quality of it. Admittedly, I haven't tried it yet, but the action "feels" much smoother and more refined than that of the Hoke Millimite 1300 series valve that I was originally planning to use in my upcoming build. Again, this isn't based on use, just tactile impression. I can't wait to see it in action.
 
#178 ·
Well, in any metering valve, there's a nut that will increase or decrease the pressure needed to turn the handle.

The H3R is much more precise than both the 1300 types (1 and 3 degree stems). But with 10 seconds and an adjustable wrench, you could make the HR3 knob pretty much impossible to turn, while making the 1300 handle as smooth as butter. Tactile impression is important, but less so when it's easily altered.
 
#179 ·
Adjustments made with a wrench won't do much to change my perception of the difference in perceived fit, finish, and action between the two valves. The larger diameter handle and the counter dial mechanism also contribute to this impression. This does not imply that one is objectively superior to the other, and I have no doubt they function similarly enough for our purposes. Frankly these valves seem to be overkill and I expect that a handful of clothespins could be made to perform with some ingenuity. Fortunately the $28 price point makes that decision moot.
 
#183 · (Edited)
and I expect that a handful of clothespins could be made to perform with some ingenuity.
lol, I even had a full set of micro drill bits ready to make custom orifice/holes on the manifold that for the clippard mouse solenoid, but to make "needle" is another dimension that require much advanced tools and material, so I chicken out.
The Parker H3L is engineering marvel in the similar valves, its needle stem is not a small "needle" look just like the other metering valves, but a much huge one.
Even with this huge "needle", this valve has much smaller orifice size than most other metering valves, and the precision to enlarge the small orifice according/proportional to the turns, is remarkable.
 
#186 ·
Since we're all about mixing oil and water :icon_eek: by discussing solenoids in this metering valve thread, I am curious how others have done or plan to wire the Burkert 2822 with its two wire leads, into a neat little package. Is there another option outside of heat-shrink tubing? That will work just fine but I am curious to see if someone has come up with a better idea...
 
#189 ·
I've messed around with a few methods. You can use butt splice connectors, or wire nuts (not pretty, but they work). And I know you were looking for something other than heat-shrink, but have you thought about using two sizes? One for each wire connection, and another, longer, larger size, to slide over both wires.

Soldering is probably the most sturdy connection, but I can't think of anything other than heat-shrink to cover it up.

As this is an issue I've struggled a lot with - what is the "prettiest" way to connect wires - I'd love to hear an electrician's suggestions.
 
#190 ·
you can use male/female terminal blade connectors, with protection plastic seal.
it is easy to disconnect and good insulation, a good alternative but not a permanent type as the soldering & heat shrink wrap method.
 
#195 ·
announce the burkert 2822 for a while now, and glad so many people got them.

the seller has less in stock, if you haven't get one, better get it before they disappear.
I believe no such deal will appear in years, this solenoid is really rare.

and the Parker H3L are still abundant, the seller did a good job stocking up so many and keep the price low.
just put some parts together to show the three way outputs with all Parker H3L, it is not a project and all parts are actually loose, the mouse solenoid and the split output block have been accounting for.
will make a system like this, don't need it but just want to make a nice system.
 
#197 ·
thanks!, I don't think they are from the same seller, but I will test the two that I got.
what is in picture is not a complete system, it is only the mouse solenoid with the manifold that is for a hobbyist.

And If all two of the same regs are defect, I will be in trouble, because I order the regs for a local hobbyist and will give him the actual regulator price.
It is pretty much like a group buy locally, only for two people, but I paid for the regs in advance if all two are broken, = :icon_sad:
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top