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UPDATE: IT'S FISH TB. ...Help me diagnose this disease that's killing my fish

27K views 108 replies 20 participants last post by  FlyingShawn 
#1 · (Edited)
MAJOR UPDATE:
The fish were euthanized and necropsied: all signs point to Fish TB/Mycobacterium. Full details and microscope slides can be found starting on this post:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/21-fish/156350-update-its-fish-tb-help-me-diagnose-disease-thats-killing-my-fish-4.html#post1698370



Original Post:

I have a mysterious disease that's been slowly infecting and killing my fish one-by-one over a long period of time. The characteristic symptoms are a very-slight bloating of the stomach and a collapse/dramatic weight loss of the body aft of the stomach (the front half of the fish seems fine, but wastes away in his back half). Here's the latest infected, a ~2 year old Odessa barb (FYI the white patch on his forehead has been there his entire life, although it does seem to cover a slightly larger area now):


As a point of comparison, here is the sick Odessa next to one of his healthy tank mates so you can see the change in body shape:


I QT all my new fish (in the past it was only for a week, but that's since increased to a month since I got a dedicated QT) and this disease is slow enough that I can't trace it back to any new additions. The first victims were a platy and some neon tetras (hard to diagnose in the tetras, so I'm not sure it's the same thing that did them in).

After they died, I noticed the other platy in the tank was exhibiting symptoms, so I set up a QT specifically for him so I could isolate him and attempt treatment. He ended up living for a full two months in QT before dying. During that time, he exhibited the same symptoms described above, became somewhat skittish, and had a healthy appetite right up until the end. I tried treating with Tetra's Parasite Clear and Jungle's medicated anti-parasite and anti-worm foods (don't know if those would have made a difference since the fish always just spit them out), to no avail.

I've recently upgraded from a heavily stocked 20gal to a lightly-stocked, planted 52gal and moved the Odessa's into the new tank since they all seemed healthy. So far the water parameters have been very good: PH ~6.8-7.4 (I've had to put some baking soda in when I do water changes, I think the tap water has changed and now has near-zero buffer in it), Ammonia 0.0-0.1, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0-5ppm.

Have any of you seen this before? Is there any treatment?
 
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#85 ·
I think it's about time I posted an update. I have some bad news, some good news, and a general strategy/progress report. So, let's get started...

First off, the bad news:

If you'll recall from earlier, the "chemical" side of my cleaning strategy was to be a high-concentration bleach soak, followed by Lysol, and then finished with isopropyl alcohol. I devised that plan according to the information from my vet and the articles I posted earlier. However, I've hit a bit of a snag in the plan. I was having trouble finding a Lysol product with the active ingredient those articles listed ("1% benzyl-4-chlorophenol/phenylphenol"), so I ended up contacting its manufacturer Reckitt Benckiser in order to find the item I needed. After a VERY frustrating series of back-and-forth emails and being directed in circles around the company of people unable or unwilling to put any effort into answering my question (seriously, is incompetency considered a marketable skill now?!), I finally got an answer: in order to unify their product line across all 50 states and their assorted safety regulations, they no longer manufacture any products with the ingredient we're looking for. So, dead end there.

The good news is that I may not need it after all. During my hours of research, I stumbled across this scholarly article:
Efficacy of Common Disinfectants against Mycobacterium marinum in the Journal of Aquatic Animal Health.

The article is paid-access-only for non-subscribers, but I lucked-out in the sense that my brother is a university librarian and has access to it through their system. Based on what I learned reading it, I'm guessing that this article is the primary source used by the other articles I linked to earlier in describing what does and doesn't work against Myco. As a result, there weren't many surprises in what I found, except for one fairly significant one:

Bleach can work, even at less-than crazy concentrations.

There are some caveats however: namely that it requires much longer contact times (at least an hour) and, more importantly, this is not a "real world" experiment, so we have to be careful what we try to apply to our tanks. What do I mean by that? These tests were done against pure laboratory samples of Myco, not against those hiding in the biofilm that you'd find in your tank. I've heard concerns that such biofilm could serve as a protective shield keeping the bleach from ever coming into contact with the Myco, which would explain the generally accepted belief that bleach is ineffective against it.

The article also said that 70% isopropyl alcohol required only a minute contact time to effectively kill Myco (again, in a non-biofilm laboratory setting).

What does this mean for me and my cleaning protocol?

Obviously, Lysol is out. It wouldn't surprise me if the current formulation of it was effective, but at the same time I don't know that to be true, so I'm going to assume that it isn't and skip it altogether.

Here's my current step-by-step protocol for each tank:
1) Drain all water and remove EVERYTHING (decorations, equipment, substrate, etc)
2) Thoroughly scrub the tank with a "Dobie" non-scratch scrubbing pad (they're made by 3M and are amazing) in order to remove as much algae and biofilm as possible.
3) Soak the tank for 1-2 hours in a 1:9 bleach solution to start killing the Myco and kill/break-down the remaining biofilm.
4) Drain about half of the bleach solution and re-scrub the entire tank again with the Dobie pad
5) Remove the rest of the bleach solution and rinse the tank with tap water
6) Set the tank out to dry for a couple of days
7) Spray the entire interior and exterior of the tank with a liberal amount of 70% isopropyl alcohol (with an extra focus on seams and frame edges) in a well-ventilated room and leave it to evaporate completely. I repeat this step at least three times to ensure that every surface has sufficient contact time for the alcohol.
8) Rinse the tank again to remove any potential residue from the alcohol (I don't think there is any, but it can't hurt to be sure).

I'm also applying adapted versions of the above process to the non-tank items that I intend to salvage. For example, I can't realistically scrub the gravel I'm saving from some of the smaller tanks, but instead I'm using much longer bleach contact times and actively stirring it during that soak in order to use the naturally-abrasive nature of the gravel to scrub for me. Also, instead of spraying the gravel with alcohol, I'll be placing it in a bucket and soaking it for an extended period of time instead (probably at least a half hour).

For the things I'm afraid to treat chemically (primarily the driftwood and maybe the lava rocks), I'll likely be using a 3+ hour bake at 450+ to heat-sterilize them. I'm still going back and forth on if that's how I want to proceed with those items, so for the moment I'm just setting them aside while I work on other steps of the project (I continue to welcome your input on this!)

I've decided to not attempt to save the plants. As much as I cringe at the idea of replacing all of them, I simply haven't been able to identify a way to ensure that they wouldn't just act as carriers for the disease. That said, however, I won't be discarding all of them right away. Contrary to my earlier plans, I've decided that the 20gal Permanent QT that will be housing my remaining fish will be a planted tank rather than a bare one, so I'll be using plants from the main tank to set up the QT (with a bleach-dip in the middle) instead of just trashing them all. The original plan was that if one of them got sick, I'd euthanize it and re-nuke that QT to minimize exposure for the others. Instead, the new plan is to still remove/euthanize the sick fish, but I'll rely on the UV unit in the tank and Diana Walstad's idea of "good bacteria out-competing Myco" in a healthy tank. Will this plan increase the risk of the other QT fish getting infected? Yes, however I'm not so sure that that's a bad thing, since we're already assuming they're carriers and I do have to let them die eventually so I can sterilize that tank and finally be rid of this stuff.

So, where am I in this whole process?

Overall, I'd guess that I'm at about 30-35% of the total labor involved (not counting wait-times, like when I'm waiting for the QT to cycle before I move fish and teardown the 52gal). More specifically:

-One of the 10gal tanks and one of the 2.5gal tanks are done with Step 7 of the cleaning protocol.

-The 20gal is almost done with Step 7 (still need to do the final alcohol spray).

-The equipment/decorations/gravel from those tanks are all done with Step 6 and are being prepared for Step 7 (since these chemicals aren't all that cheap on this kind of scale, I'm trying to group things together to get as much mileage out of each bottle as possible)

-The planted 10gal that all those guppies came from is currently in the middle of Step 1 (teardown/basic cleaning).

-The final 2.5gal has not yet been touched. I'm trying to figure out what I did wrong with my dry-start method HC carpet that seems to be failing, so I wanted to give it some more time to "rebound" just to see what would happen before I tore it down.

-My new-and-improved emersed-growth rig is now up and running (using both a larger container and a hybrid of artificial and natural light). I never tore down the original one that I was using to grow HC to start the big tank, so I have some HC, narrow-leaf Ludwigia, and some rather-expensive 'Red' Ludwigia that have never been exposed to the Myco that I can grow out for when I get to the point of restarting my tanks. It's only been set up for about a week, so it's still too early to tell if my hybrid-lighting plan will work. I'd eventually like to shed the artificial light altogether, but I'd like to get it established before I try that.

-I've purchased a larger UV sterilizer of Craigslist to use on the 20gal Permanent QT (the 18w Turbo Twist model), but it's coming from a salt tank and has extensive mineral deposits that I need to clean before I can put it into service.

-I'm not going to do any teardown of the main 52gal until I get the 20gal Permanent QT up and running, so I've done nothing with that so far. The fish inside it are all healthy with extremely strong coloration, so I don't think any of them have active Myco infections at the moment.

Sorry this got so lengthy! I realized it'd been a long time since I did a larger-scale strategy update, so I wanted to be thorough (especially for those who are in this same situation). As always, I welcome any comments/questions/advice you have!
 
#86 ·
Sterilizing temperature for fish TB.

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/emerging/en/patmycrobact11.pdf
The resistance of mycobacteria to heat and freezing may influence its survival in
water systems and in treatment residuals. Certain thermophilic species
(M. chelonae, M. avium or M. xenopi) survive at temperatures above 55 oC;
whereas, under the same conditions, M. kansasii or M. marinum are quickly
destroyed (Merkal & Crawford 1979; Schulze-Röbbecke & Buchholtz 1992).
So heating up the tank to 55 degree celsius (131F) for a few hours might help.

But since there are other species other than M. marinum that cause fith TB.
76 degree celsius is preferred.

http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/mycobacterium_marinum.pdf
If trash fish or dead fish carcasses are used as a source of protein
in the feed for fish, it should be heated at 76oC for 30 minutes to
kill any pathogenic mycobacteria.
But I don't know how high the temperature our tanks could handle...
 
#87 ·
But I don't know how high the temperature our tanks could handle...
The main interest is probably silicone, right?

Well, I find they are OK with very high temp (like 233 degree celsius).
http://www.americansealantsinc.com/asi-aquarium-sealant/

And the "popular" choice like RTV100 series has continuous operating
temperature at 200 degree celsius.
http://www.polymax.co.uk/DataSheets/Adhesives/RTV100_Series.pdf

Hmmm. So it should not be a problem to slowly rise the temperature of
tank's water to 76c ?
 
#88 ·
FlyingShawn,
I have been following this thread, and I commend you on continuing to post your experiences. It must be really hard to have to go through this. Tearing down the whole system, and the worry about the other tanks.
I appreciate all your research (and the input from others who have posted).

I have a few suggestions about re-stocking.
Sometimes there are aquarium clubs nearby where you might be able to get plants free or cheaper than buying and paying shipping.
I do not know if MB lives inside the plant tissues. Perhaps it does live on the outside, in the biofilm that is on the leaves.
If you get started with some new, young, small plants and grow them out, take cuttings and keep only the cuttings for a few times and keep on growing them in a fish-free environment this might be a way to get plants that are as MB free as possible.
Plants do not stand up well to sanitizing. But the quick dip in chlorine that removes the biofilm might be all that they need. With no fish in the tank to host the MB, and repeatedly taking only the newest growth and growing it on the plants probably grow faster than the MB spreads.

Another thought...
Several years ago I bought a product that was supposed to be a collection of beneficial bacteria (not N-cycle bacteria) that would grow in the tank and establish the colonies faster than any 'bad' bacteria. I do not know if this (or a similar product) is still available, but it might be worth looking into.
The concept is valid: Establish the 'good guys' and maintain conditions for these organisms to thrive, and the 'bad guys' tend to have very low, usually non-threatening populations. Unfortunately UV sterilizer will kill the 'good guys' as well as the 'bad', so you would need to turn off the UV until the colony was established. Still, I think this is a better approach than trying to keep the new set up as sterile as possible.
 
#90 ·
FlyingShawn,
I have been following this thread, and I commend you on continuing to post your experiences. It must be really hard to have to go through this. Tearing down the whole system, and the worry about the other tanks.
I appreciate all your research (and the input from others who have posted).
Thanks for the encouragement! And, I can't thank the rest of you who have responded on these threads enough; your input has been totally invaluable as I've tried to wrap my head around these problems!

I have a few suggestions about re-stocking.
Sometimes there are aquarium clubs nearby where you might be able to get plants free or cheaper than buying and paying shipping.
I do not know if MB lives inside the plant tissues. Perhaps it does live on the outside, in the biofilm that is on the leaves.
If you get started with some new, young, small plants and grow them out, take cuttings and keep only the cuttings for a few times and keep on growing them in a fish-free environment this might be a way to get plants that are as MB free as possible.
Plants do not stand up well to sanitizing. But the quick dip in chlorine that removes the biofilm might be all that they need. With no fish in the tank to host the MB, and repeatedly taking only the newest growth and growing it on the plants probably grow faster than the MB spreads.
Excellent idea regarding using the cuttings! At this point, I'm not sure if I'm willing to accept any cross-contamination risk through the plants, but I think your idea has enough potential that I need to seriously consider it. I'm especially thinking about if I could adapt that idea to a two-stage emersed-growth idea...

Perhaps I could set up a small, "dirty" (no pun intended) emersed rig outside of my main one and plant cuttings from "contaminated" plants in it (post bleach-dip). After giving them time to grow, I'd make new cuttings from the elevated (airborne) portions of new growth (so no physical contact with the now "contaminated" dirt or water) and transfer them to my "clean" emersed rig to grow out again. The core assumption is that any Myco piggy-backing on the original plant would only spread into areas with direct water contact (ie, the dirt) and not onto the "dry" growth sticking up into the air. Thoughts?

Another thought...
Several years ago I bought a product that was supposed to be a collection of beneficial bacteria (not N-cycle bacteria) that would grow in the tank and establish the colonies faster than any 'bad' bacteria. I do not know if this (or a similar product) is still available, but it might be worth looking into.
The concept is valid: Establish the 'good guys' and maintain conditions for these organisms to thrive, and the 'bad guys' tend to have very low, usually non-threatening populations. Unfortunately UV sterilizer will kill the 'good guys' as well as the 'bad', so you would need to turn off the UV until the colony was established. Still, I think this is a better approach than trying to keep the new set up as sterile as possible.
Do you by any chance recall what that product was called or how it was marketed (ie, what "purpose" it had)? As best as I can recall, I've only ever seen probiotic products related to the N-Cycle. Then again, I can't say that I've ever really looked for them either, so I'll start keeping my eyes out.

My plan for the Permanent QT was to do a complete fishless/plantless-cycle to build up the good bacteria before transferring any "dirty" material over. That way I'll be able to activate the UV unit as soon as I move the fish and plants over and it should have no adverse effect on the already-established good bacteria in the tank. What do you think?
 
#91 ·
I will see if I can dig up any info on the non-N-cycle bacteria.

Yes, it sounds good to do a fishless cycle, using ammonia, not even fish food or dead shrimp as ammonia source. Then planting, and turning on the UV when the N-cycle is complete.

I like the idea of growing some plants to the emersed stage, then taking cuttings only of the parts that had no direct contact with the water or soil! Even if MB could hang out in plants somewhat, I would be surprised if it was very mobile in plants. Then a quick dip in chlorine or alcohol, then grow out the cuttings...
 
#92 ·
#94 ·
Thanks for finding those articles!

After reading through those, I've spent the last couple hours looking for probiotic supplements along those lines. There are a lot of "beneficial bacteria" products out there, but it seems the vast majority of them are either focused on N-Cycle bacteria or on breaking down waste/mulm in the tank ("Liquid Gravel Vac", etc). However, I have found three that seem like they might be what I'm looking for:

The first is the liquid form of the Aqua MedZyme in your second link:
Aqua MedZyme Liquid
At ~$25 for a 16oz bottle, it sounds pricey, but considering it's supposedly enough to treat 48,000 gallons, I suspect it'll expire long before I run out of it. It's primarily designed for Koi environments, but I'm not aware of any reason why it wouldn't also work for a tropical freshwater tank.

The second is made by the "Dr Tim's" brand, which I believe is fairly reputable for their N-Cycle bacterial products (haven't tried them myself, but I seem to recall seeing that name in a positive light before):
Dr Tim's Aquatics Eco-Balance
A ~$14, 16oz bottle is "only" rated for 480 gallons (quite a difference from the stuff above), but it is specifically marketed for freshwater systems. However, I couldn't find any information the actual bacteria it contains or how many different types there are (according to your links, it's important to have a mix), so I don't know as much about it as I do the first stuff.

The third is this:
Tropical Science Immune-Plus
I've never heard of the brand and it gives no information regarding shelf life, so I suspect that it might not be as high-quality a product as the others. However, it does claim to have 5 different species of bacteria and is supposedly enough for 1700 gallons, so I figured I'd mention it even though I suspect the other two are better options.

I still think the "probiotic" idea is a brilliant strategy going forward (for all of my tanks, not just the quarantine), so I'm definitely going to pursue it. I just need to decide on which product to use for it. Thanks again!
 
#93 ·
I am re-reading this thread, and looking into the links more closely.
In post 85 the link (about disinfectants) specifies that glutaraldehyde is very effective (almost at the end of the article).
Glutaraldehyde is the liquid carbon source used as a substitute for Excel.
In low doses it is not toxic to fish.

If you can get gluteraldahyde, treat the tank and everything else with that, then rinse well. Any trace amount left after rinsing is so low it will not be toxic.
MAYBE the plants can tolerate the higher dose, too???
 
#95 ·
Wow, I'm floored by your dedication in looking through all of this again!

OverStocked suggested a Glutaraldehyde-based product in the "Heat Kill"-spinoff thread (Anyone with biology knowledge: boiling or baking to kill Mycobacteria/Fish TB?). While I have no doubt that it's very effective, it's also quite pricey and seems to require some very careful handling, so I felt it was probably overkill for my needs.

To jump back to what you said a couple posts earlier about the "airborne growth" plant strategy:
After some further pondering, I had the thought that even if some Myco were to "climb" up on to the dry growth I want to save, it probably wouldn't find any biofilm to hide in. If that's the case, then that second bleach dip you suggested would probably be enough to clean it off once and for all before transferring the plant to the "clean" emersed rig. Even if some were to manage to hang on, I have to assume that it'd be so little as to fall below "ambient" levels (since all of our tanks supposedly have it) and should be no match for a heavily probiotic-saturated tank environment going forward.

All that being said, I'll probably just use that airborne growth strategy on a handful of my harder-to-find plants (like the Willow Leaf Hygro), since I don't have nearly enough room or patience to grow enough of the other plants to fill-out the main tank when the time comes to start it up again.. For the QT, I'll probably just bleach-dip the plants I want to save and put them in the cycled QT without making any further effort to clean them. After that, it'll be up to the UV and probiotics to keep any Myco at bay.
 
#96 ·
I would tend to trust the Dr. Tim brand. He is the person who isolated the correct nitrogen cycle bacteria when Marineland started marketing it as Bio Spira.

I cannot be sure if he has gotten on the bandwagon of selling stuff just 'cause it sells or if he is really developing and selling viable options for the aquariums.
Perhaps a carefully worded e mail to him, including a brief history (like I saw you did for the Seachem question) might help. Here is a link to Dr. Tim's web site:

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/H2O_PURE_Products/H2O_PURE_Products.html#FW_EB

That Tropical Science label sure looks familiar, but it has been a long time since I used it. Here is a link to their site. I am less inclined to trust this one, because I looked at their cycling product (Nitromax) and it has the wrong bacteria. It has been over a decade that the right bacteria were identified. Any company still selling the old strains is not one I would trust.

http://www.tsbiolabs.com/product_p/ip-60.htm
 
#97 ·
I've emailed both Dr Tim's and AquaMeds with specific questions about their products, so we'll just have to see what they say. I suspect that the AquaMeds is a better product overall (just based on the amount of information and research they claim), so my main question for them was if there's any reason it can't be used on a warm-water tropical tank instead of a Koi pond.

Seeing the videos on the Dr. Tim's site about how major institutions (like the Georgia Aquarium) use their products certainly lends them a great deal of credibility in my mind. Like you said, that may not extend to other product lines, but you'd think they'd have major incentive not to risk that reputation.

I think you're right, if Tropical Science is still using the "old" bacteria for the N-Cycle products, that's probably enough reason to doubt their credibility overall. Especially considering the credibility of these other two options, I think it's safe to dismiss them from my consideration.
 
#98 ·
Might just add a comment while you're on the topic of nitrifying bacteria - a recent paper suggests that the first step of nitrification may not be bacterially driven at all. Rather, the major ammonia oxidizers could actually be archaea. Expect bacterial products to change accordingly within the next few years I suppose...

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0023281

I'm not sure I'd be looking at nitrification cocktails though - looking at heterotrophic bacteria seems like a better idea. These would be more likely to directly compete with (heterotrophic) Myco than true autotrophic bacteria.
 
#99 · (Edited)
Might just add a comment while you're on the topic of nitrifying bacteria - a recent paper suggests that the first step of nitrification may not be bacterially driven at all. Rather, the major ammonia oxidizers could actually be archaea. Expect bacterial products to change accordingly within the next few years I suppose...

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0023281
Very interesting, thanks for summarizing it for us! (I make no secret that I'm not a biologist, so I would have struggled to understand the article without going into it with the "gist" as you explained it)

I'm not sure I'd be looking at nitrification cocktails though - looking at heterotrophic bacteria seems like a better idea. These would be more likely to directly compete with (heterotrophic) Myco than true autotrophic bacteria.
Just a point of clarification: we're not looking at nitrification cocktails in this discussion. Rather, we were using our limited knowledge of that field (that Dr. Tim's research identified the correct bacteria involved in the N-Cycle and Tropical Science are still marketing the incorrect/less-correct ones from the prior understanding) as a ruler by which to judge those companies' scientific credibility when comparing their non-N-Cycle "probiotic" products.

Granted, we still don't know much about what kind of probiotic bacteria these companies are marketing (aside from AquaMed, who claims it's a "specilized bacillus bacteria"), but we aren't specifically looking at nitrification products either.
 
#100 ·
Apologies - I obviously got the wrong impression (that you were looking for nitrification products)! I'm not going to be much help on products that are available, but your approach in picking reputable companies sounds perfectly reasonable for me. If you were in AU, I'd recommend Aquasonic, a local company which makes high class products but strangely has a very low key reputation amongst hobbyists.

An additional small suggestion for when you start up the next tank - if you can find someone who has a well established tank already running, get 'em to do a good gravel vacc and dump all the mulm in your (clean) substrate. I think you will find that you can transfer a heck of a lot of beneficial microflora this way. May help if you have them all in there from the get go.
 
#101 ·
Just heard back from Dr. Tim's.

Following a brief explanation of my situation, I asked them three specific questions about their product:

1) Does Eco-Balance contain multiple strains of bacteria? If so, how many?
2) After several months of dosing, are the beneficial bacteria in this product able to form a stable self-sustaining population or does the tank require regular dosing to sustain these populations?
3) Has any Mycobacterium-specific research been done to see if these probiotic bacteria have a competitive advantage against it when competing for resources?

Here is their response:
Hello Mr __________:

Thanks for your interest in our products.

Our probiotic for freshwater has 6 species for saltwater/reef it has 8 species.

Our probiotic strains were isolated by us from aquaria and are grown by us - almost no other company in the Aquatics Industry can claim this.

The beneficial bacteria do not form self-sustaining populations because they are eaten by protozoa and other micro-organisms so regular dosing is necessary.

Regarding mycobacterium specifically - at this point there is no published research but hopefully before the end of the year there will be a paper or two.

Hope this answers your questions but always available should you have more

Cheers
DrTim's Aquatics
 
#102 ·
FS, thanks so much for your dedication in sharing all this with us. I really appreciate it. I'm sorry you've had to go through the experience, but your sharing will help others who find them selves in the same boat.

Having just euth'd a white cloud mtn minnow with what appears to be mycobacterium, I am concerned about the other fish. I'll be keeping an eye on them and returning to this thread to check on your progress as well. I hope the probiotics and all your other approaches help and you have no more sick fish.

Take care,
mj
 
#104 ·
Having just euth'd a white cloud mtn minnow with what appears to be mycobacterium, I am concerned about the other fish. I'll be keeping an eye on them and returning to this thread to check on your progress as well.
Good luck MJ, I really hope that your minnow had something(anything!) else!

I think I've concluded that the 2nd worst thing about Myco is that it's so hard to diagnose and, once you learn it exists, you're always paranoid that your fish may have it (the worst thing of course being that it can also infect you!).

I forgot to add earlier that the all remaining fish still look healthy. As before, there's one female Odessa Barb that I keep thinking might be in the early stages, but she doesn't seem to be getting any worse and I think my mind is just playing tricks on me.

Never heard back from AquaMed, so I've decided to go ahead and purchase the Dr. Tim's probiotic product and will start dosing that on the permanent QT once it finishes cycling.
 
#103 ·
I haven't abandoned you! I'm really sorry that I haven't posted any updates lately, I've been really busy at work and what little time I've had at home has been occupied with a couple major projects (like this one!) and trying to relax a little every once in a while..

There hasn't been much to report either: I've been working on sterilizing a lot of various pieces of equipment and decorations, building my "Clean" and "Dirty" emersed rigs, and setting up the 20gal permanent QT we've spent so much time discussing.

I'll try to make up for the delay with a few pictures of what I've been doing...

First off, I set up my "Clean" emersed rig. This one will only be used for plants that have never been exposed to the TB (at this point that list is limited to the plants that were in my jury-rigged and soon-to-be-decommissioned setup for growing HC emersed before setting up the big tank last time around). Eventually, I'll also move over the "deemed-clean" cuttings from the "Dirty" emersed rig, like Diana and I were talking about earlier.

It's made using a Sterilite tub, cut-up sections of water bottles, and a mix of artificial and natural lighting. I punctured small holes in the bottom of each bottle so that the water could get in and lined one wall of the rig with aluminum foil to try to capture as much natural sunlight from the window as possible. I don't know if the foil is making any real difference to speak of, but what can it hurt to try? Originally, I used the body from a Finnex 26w clip light for the artificial side of the lighting, but between a couple weeks of a lot of clouds and the weakness of the light getting through the lid, the plants were hanging on with little-to-no growth to speak of.



So, I decided to build a new lighting system that would work better for this rig. I purchased a cheap incandescent hood for a 10gal tank and a couple of Walmart fluorescent aquarium lights, mounted the fixture from the hood to the inside of the lid, and added a couple of combination reflectors/bulb protectors made out of water bottles and aluminum foil. Here's how it turned out:




Sorry, I don't have any recent pictures of the interior of the rig, but after a couple of weeks of mostly-sunny days and the new lighting, the growth inside has absolutely exploded! I've used these same bulbs before in a Walstad-style 10gal tank and was also really impressed with how well the plants did under them in there.

Speaking of that 10gal and those other bulbs, I also just finished the "Dirty" emersed rig for the plants I want to preserve from the contaminated tanks. I've cut the bottles a little taller than normal and made clippings of the plants so that they (mostly) fit within the height of each bottle. Assuming they successfully transition to emersed-mode and grow well, I'll make cuttings from the parts that grow out the top of each bottle and move them into the Clean emersed rig (after a quick bleach dip, to be safe). Here's how it looked after I set it up a few days ago:



I'm mainly using it to grow the Willow Leaf Hygrophilia that I like so much (and haven't seen elsewhere), but I had extra room in the tank and decided to toss a couple other plants in there just to see how they'd do emersed.

The last thing to update you on is that I've just begun cycling the 20gal permanent QT tank. I set it up on Friday, added a little ammonia, and then poured in Tetra SafeStart on Saturday afternoon. I've tried using SafeStart before without a huge amount of success, but after reading through this Q&A with Tetra I figured out that my water conditioner was likely also killing off the SafeStart bacteria by detoxing the ammonia solution it comes in:
SafeStart Questions Answered

So far the cycle is off to a very promising start. When last I measured it, it'd converted 1ppm of ammonia into nitrate within the span of 6 hours! My plan is to keep dosing ammonia until the tank is very-heavily cycled, put in plants, and then move the fish over from the big tank. Then I'll be able to start tearing down/sterilizing the 52gal itself.

The teardown of the 52gal will be a hugely time-consuming project and I have vacation later this month (which I'm hoping to get out of town for), so updates will continue to be infrequent for the time being. In the meantime, I continue to welcome any ideas or suggestions you guys may have!
 
#105 ·
Thought I would go ahead and add some current information and links I've gathered into this thread rather than have another floating on the forum. I won't call it "fish TB" though.

The person leading me through the information has told me that's yesterday's best guess and not a correct term to use.
Links with correct information:
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/231/
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/235/
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/238/
http://sfrc.ufl.edu/fish/outreach/extpubs/
http://www.peter.unmack.net/archive/rml/rmlaug99/0117.html
http://z7.invisionfree.com/MTSA/ar/t24.htm
http://www.tnfish.org/FishDiseasesParasites_TWRA/files/Mycobacteriosis.pdf

Information can be found under the tab “Health Services” on this site.
There’s a lot of good information there including how to produce clean fish.
(Unfortunately they also call myco fish T.B. in one or two places.)
http://zebrafish.org/zirc/home/guide.php
http://zebrafish.org/zirc/health/diseaseManual.php#Mycobacteriosis (Fish TB)

within this reply I've provide all the best primary information reference I have been given that’s not copy write restricted.
 
#106 ·
I just finished going through this thread again and all related links today.
Some of the research papers I posted in my post above duplicate some you had already found.

On the bleach testing mentioned it was brand specific.
Cleaning methods with bleach at normally considered ratios won't kill all myco strains. The 10% once reported effective is now considered wrong. Tested bleach washes strong enough to kill myco was also strong enough to damage tank sealants. Clorox Ultra was tested as only 'moderately' effective (50,000mg/L) with >20 minutes nessary to eliminate growth. But bleach is still part of it. Bleach will clear the biofilm to help expose the bacteria. H2O2 above 3% can also be effective for that part. But it's the wash of 50-70% alcohol that Doc say's kill it. Alcohol was effective within 1 minute so a spray bottle will work for surface cleaning rather than a soak. (Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 2005)

Glutaraldehyde activates effectively in alkaline solutions. Effective on myco at 2% and above I believe (but need to verify by the paper I have at home). Excel strength is reported to test out as 1.5% in two posted lab tests I've been able to find.

Wet heat will work according to the Doc I'm following advice from.
Thinking turkey fryer and 30 minute boil to raise large wood cores, gravels, Flourite etc. completely to temperature. Even new soils will be boiled or baked here.

For dry heat 350°F is what was approved in query.

3-5 individuals from all fish orders received going forward will be sacrificed in the name of safety before the rest leave my entry quarantine tanks.

Yeah you guess correctly,,, a 'friend' brought myco into my entry tanks and I have been evaluating cross contamination potentials for the last month.

LMAO! I just realized this is my first forum post declaring I have myco positive fish. :icon_roll Those that have PM'ed for plants and fish and haven't received any answer now know why. I won't share crap like this. Like Shawn I'm figuring how far it has gotten and I slammed the door shut on the mailman in December.
Those that received critters prior to that from me they were clear of it and I'm certain of that.
 
#108 · (Edited)
Shawn and I exchanged posts in another thread on this topic recently and using heat to kill myco (the temperature needed) was one of the things briefly talked about. Locating open source (allowed for copy or link) isn't easy.

Here's one open source lab study protocol excerpt quoted here with the ref. link.
This is regarding water boiling (212°F) Deactivating = kill.
I have compiled a number of PDF documents and web links to lab and medical study regarding viable temperature range for a large number of myco strains. Reading several of them at once will send my brain into a spin LOL

"For procedures that do not require intact, high quality DNA such as PCR testing, our laboratory depends on the much more expedient lysate method of boiling culture at 100°C for 10 minutes, followed by mechanical lysis for 2 minutes to release DNA. Although crude, this procedure is adequate for our PCR testing needs, has been shown to completely destroy live organism in our laboratory, and is consistent with other studies [7,8]. The study by Zwadyk et al. concluded that inactivating mycobacteria by heat lysing at a temperature of 100°C for 30 minutes did not inhibit its ability to be amplified by PCR or strand displacement amplification [8]. Furthermore, this study has shown that inoculating the boiled lysate alone without mechanical lysis was adequate in rendering the sample non-viable.

The viability testing of the two methods outlined above for DNA extractions were performed by various technicians who routinely follow these procedures, lending interpersonal variability to the study. It was demonstrated that the small nuances to procedure, such as the varying density of culture used, did not affect the method employed to deactivate the organism."

Research article tittle:
Viability testing of material derived from Mycobacterium tuberculosis prior to removal from a Containment Level-III Laboratory as part of a Laboratory Risk Assessment Program
.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2334/5/4
 
#109 ·
Wnkracer, what are the latest thoughts on the idea of using "sentinel" fish as part of a quarantine protocol to help screen new arrivals for Myco?

If memory serves, I first saw the idea proposed by Walstad in one of the articles I read during my initial research (although I'm afraid I've forgotten which one and am not even positive it was Walstad). The idea was to keep a population of Zebra Danios (which I seem to recall are especially susceptible to Myco, potentially even more so than Rainbowfish) in quarantine for an extended period of time (6+ months) to ensure they are healthy, move them into a non-quarantine system like a display tank, and then move a couple of them back into your quarantine tank each time you have a new arrival.

You'd still have to keep the new arrival in quarantine with the Zebras for a long time (I'd guess a minimum of 45-60 days), but their higher susceptibility would theoretically allow you to be more confident of the new arrival's health at the end of that time.

My main tank is still not up and running again and will likely be a while (I'm hoping to get a more detailed update posted before too much longer), so I was thinking that now might be a good time to get the Zebras and put them in the initial quarantine if that's still considered a helpful precaution.

Have you seen anything in the more recent literature that references this concept?
 
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