Anoles with D. Auratus?
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Old 12-30-2003, 05:44 PM   #1
Anonymous
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Hello,

I am currently building a 30 gallon terrarium. I am wondering if it is acceptable to mix anoles with poison dart frogs (specifically D. auratus)? I would like to have both, but I'm not sure if that will work. I can't imagine them interfering with each other - I am hoping that someone has some info about this?

Thanks -
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Old 01-03-2004, 06:04 AM   #2
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I searched all over, and could not find info.

I would consider things like this when deciding.
Temperature range required by both.
Humidity range required by both.
Food required by both. (Will they have to fight for it?)
Dropping toxicity and bacterium. (Will anole droppings kill the frog?)
Contact issues (Will the frog toxins kill, or just sicken the anole?)
Territory (Anoles are territorial, and will bite to defend!)

I know that anoles like basking lights that are about 80F - 90F, and that most frogs prefer 60F - 70F, and both like Humidity of 60% - 80%.

Personally, I would try to keep a temp range of 65F - 70F at the bottom, where the frog will dwell. Keep the temp near 70F - 75F near the top, where the anole should spend a greater amount of time. With a small basking lamp, directed at one of the tanks side walls, not aimed directly down. The basking area should get up to 85F in the light.
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Old 01-17-2004, 07:50 PM   #3
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Have you ever had dart frogs? Their food items are different from anoles, and to be honest they will probably become food for the anoles. Most dartfrogs are TINY, so unless you get full grown adults, they are a sure snack (and an expensive one) for anoles.
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Old 01-27-2004, 06:53 AM   #4
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absolutely not, mixing species is BAD.
you can't even mix different species of dart frogs never mind frogs and lizards...take my advice and don't mix
you be glad you didn't in the long run
good luck
-Matt
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Old 01-27-2004, 01:58 PM   #5
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I thought that I had strong opinions!
I can understand that opinion, even respect the vagueness of the reply. Could you possibly extend upon that a little more though? I am curious about your specific situation that led you to such an abrupt and direct answer.

Not for argument, but...
In nature, several species thrive in mixed groups. Locations and habits may limit the unity in which harmony prevails, but to say, "Absolutely not, mixing species is BAD!", is rather blunt and general. My 55 gallon has two fire-belly newts, four fire-belly toads, one gray tiger salamander, and two giant African millipedes. There are also some worms, gray flys, assorted plants, and I am sure there are some parasites in there.

I know that some species are real viciously territorial, and some can cross-infect, and stuff like that. Others can trample, or accidentally injury, (By sharp claws.). An example would be dart frogs, and fighting fish. Our LFS keeps anoles and fire-belly toads in the same tank year round without complication. Anoles are not of a vicious nature, and tend to stay a distance from other species. But if you know of some ailment or condition that would be specific to pairing these two, then please elaborate. You have my attention.
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Old 01-27-2004, 02:03 PM   #6
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If you fear mixing, then you can always throw a tank separator in there. (Standard plexiglass is easy to work with, and can be made into a permanent fixture, or a removable one.)
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Old 03-01-2004, 06:13 PM   #7
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hey
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Old 06-23-2004, 04:08 PM   #8
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of corse you can mix them! they come form the same enviroment and dart frogs in captivity ant pisonus!!!!!!! they think it is something the frogs eat in the wild that makes them poisnus. brown or green anoles will not eat D. auratus, a full grown aratus can be 2.5 inches long! much to big for a green or brown anole to eat. also at that size both will eagerly eat crickets, and if the frogs are smaller and you have to feed them fruit flies, the anoles will eat though to, just make shure you give them some cricktes and fruit baby food as well. infact my 2 brown anoles bread in a 20 gallon with 2 auratus!
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Old 06-30-2004, 02:05 AM   #9
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No, no no and no. Xxll; not to be rude but dont give advice if your info is false. They dont come from the same environment; and the fact that CB specimens are not toxic makes no difference in whether or not its alright to mix. If you plan on mixing dart frogs and Anolis species, your only asking for trouble. Cross toxicity will eventually occur; i learned this the hard way. Please think twice about this, or atleast; think at all. Reptiles are not tropical fish. The anole WILL eventually eat the frog.

If you dont believe me...



BTW ive kept both species, and to me, mixing them would be absurd.
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Old 07-10-2004, 08:52 PM   #10
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i beg to differ, first of all, all i see in that picture (witch is quite good) is a green anole eating a cricket, i don't se how that could shoud how aggressive anoles are. yes i know i said they are from the same place, but what i ment is that many species (the caribbean anoles) live in the same habitat although not in the same location. also, i have seen countless enclosures in pet stores and at zoos housing them both together. in particular , the National Baltimore Aquarium, houses them both together in large display cages, they even have an emerald tree boa! in the cage (unlike green tree pythons, emralds only eat warmbloods), in another cage they had about seven D. Galactonotus, a bushmaster (a venomous snake from central america), 3 waxy monkey frogs and some sort of vine snake. also, just today, i was at my local pet store (they carry dart frogs some times) and in about a 30 gallon long they had D. auratus, green anoles, gold dust day geckos and long tail lizards. so don't tell me that they cannot be house together, they can! i would not put froglets in with anything elths though, they are more delicate and shy, but large active adults will be fine, as long as they have enough room.
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Old 07-11-2004, 05:11 AM   #11
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This is an exerp from Marc van Doorn's website at http://www.poison-frogs.com.

"March 2002 - April 2002

As always you keep on changing in the vivarium, during march i added a female anole in the enclosure.

***

20 april was the date for the new frog exchange day of dendrobates netherlands, Besides from starting as the new treasurer of Dendrobates netherlands, i could not resist the temptation to add another another species in the vivarium, After discussing waht would be a good frog in it that would be consistent with the setting i choose the dendorbates imitator. I was worried about the combination with the anoles, but the breeder kept some phelsumas together with this tiny frog, which convinced me enough. 3 days later the stressfull message came from my wife that the anole had a frog in its mouth, during a meeting at work. This was the end of my attention at work and i went home early to capture the anoles to get them out of the viv. And safe what could be saved. The frog that was almost swalowed was spit out by the anole ( they obviously taste pretty bad ) and it jumped away somewhat later as if noting happened. This is unbelievable looking at the picture of the awefull event. I don't take this chance anymore therefore i brought the anoles back to the pet shop for them to sell to somebody else."
If that wasnt enough, here is another great article written by Devin Edmonds who owns and opperates http://www.amphibiancare.com. And there are several links that follow.
Community Amphibian Tanks

By Devin Edmonds

The community amphibian tank is a great idea in theory. Many people like to think of amphibians as tropical fish. After all, both fish and amphibians come from the water right? Then why couldn't you house different species together just like tropical fish? The answer to that question is a touchy one in the herp community and everyone who keeps amphibians will have a different answer. I feel that keeping different species of amphibians or reptiles together should be left to experienced hobbyists and zoological institutions. I have been keeping amphibians for almost 10 years now and I still don't plan on attempting to house multiple species together.

There are many species of tropical fish that require the same care. They can live in the same environment with the same temperatures, eat the same food, are active at the same time of day and are not aggressive towards each other. Unlike tropical fish however, there are very few species of amphibians that can live well together. Even with the few species that will live fine together you must make special accommodations so that all the animals in the cage can have what they need to survive.

The largest problem with keeping different species, or even the same species of amphibians together in one cage is the fact that most amphibians will eat anything that looks like it could be edible. Amphibians are not smart animals. Often they will attempt to eat anything that moves, even if it can't fit in their mouth. I have watched a group of oriental fire-bellied toads (Bombina orientalis) at a pet store try and devour one another's legs, heads and arms during feeding time. Almost all amphibians rely on movement to attract them to food. Anything that moves in the cage is fair game to a hungry amphibian including other cage mates.

As a general rule large species should not be kept with small species. All of the animals in the cage should be the same size, even if they are the same species.

Accommodating different environments in the same cage for different species can be difficult to provide and rarely works out. You can not keep a semi-aquatic Japanese fire-bellied newt (Cynops pyrrhogaster) that requires a very cool cage with a Cuban tree frog (Ostepilus septentrionalis) that needs a warmer environment. It will not work out. Similarily you won't be able to keep an American toad (Bufo americanus) that is terrestrial with a fully aquatic African clawed frog (Xenopus leavis).

One common overlooked problem with community tanks is the toxicity of the animals and how it will effect the other amphibians in the cage. Many amphibians produce a toxin to defend themselves when a preditor attacks. These toxins can contaminate the water source in the cage. Many species of commonly available newts produce these toxins. As a general rule don't mix newts with other species of amphibians. Another common mistake made when mixing species is housing fire-bellied toads (Bombina species) with any other type of amphibian. Fire-bellied toads secrete a toxin when they feel threatened that can harm other animals and even contaminate the water source in the cage. I have even heard of fire-bellied toads being killed by large amounts of their own toxin when they are kept in over crowded cages with a small water area.

Some amphibians that are close to the same size, require similar habitats and would seem to be fine if kept together sometimes do poorly because they require different sized insects to eat. One example of this is keeping large species of dart frogs (Dendrobatid species) with red-eyed tree frogs (Agalychnis callidryas). The majority of poison dart frogs, even the larger species that grow to 2 or 3 inches, still require tiny insects for food. Most large species will not eat anything that is bigger than 1/4 inch (there are some exceptions) and preffer to eat insects that are 1/16 to 1/8 inch in length. An adult red-eyed tree frog will eat 3/4 inch insects and most will rarely go after the tiny insects fed to dart frogs.

The last common problem that I wanted to touch on is territorial issues. Many amphibians are very territorial and will fight others to defend their area in the cage. Most species of toads (Bufo species) and salamanders (order Caudata) are territorial to some degree. Dominant animals in the cage can often harm weaker animals of the same species. They also have the potential to harm other species that are weaker than they are. Adding different types of amphibians to a terrarium that houses a male salamander or toad can also stress the territorial animal because they aren’t able to defend their territory against the other species.

So what kind of amphibians can you keep together in the same cage? A good combination that can work out is keeping similar sized North American tree frog species together. Gray tree frogs (Hyla chrysoscelis and versicolor), green tree frogs (Hyla cinerea), squirrel tree frogs (Hyla squirella) and similar species should generally be okay if they are kept together in the same cage as long as they are all about the same size. Barking tree frogs (Hyla gratiosa) seem to be a little more sensative to their surroundings and should not be kept with other Hyla species. I have heard of some people having success keeping multiple species of African reed frogs (Hyperolius species) together. Before mixing reed frogs its important to identify what species they are so that you can pick frogs that have close to the same care requirements. Some species of poison dart frogs (Dendrobatids) can be housed together with success. When this is done its important not to keep species that are able to breed so that hybrid frogs are not produced. Keeping Phyllobates vitattus with Dendrobates auratus or Phyllobates bicolor with Dendorbates tinctorius or azureus are two good possible combinations.

Okay, so now you have a nice terrarium setup that provides all the requirements that both species of amphibians will need and you have done all of your research. Time to get your new amphibians and stick them all in the terrarium, right? Wait! Before housing multiple species together quarantine them for at least 2 months. Keep all animals in separate cages with a simple design that is easy to clean while they are being quarantined. Make sure all the animals are healthy, eating and do not have any internal or external parasites. It may help to have a stool sample from each animal brought to a vet so that they can do a fecal exam.

Keeping a community amphibian tank is something that takes a lot of research, time, money and space to provide. I feel that zoos and experienced hobbyists are some of the few that can accommodate an enclosure that houses multiple species of amphibians. If you are just starting out, or have limited experience keeping amphibians I would suggest that you keep different species of amphibians separate for now. To end this ramble here are a few links.

Online Resources:

Doyle's Dart Den FAQ - Short paragraph about mixing different dart frog species together
Frogarium - John Riekes (sp?) has created a terrarium that houses day geckos and a few small frogs together
Housing Newts With Other Animals - A nice faq that answers many common questions
Species Mixing: A Dangerous Game of Russian Roulette - Focuses on newts and salamanders
Planning A Community Herp Tank - Great information with some good examples of community reptile tanks that have worked for the author


I hope this is enough information to show you that mixing species in an aquarium is a bad idea and should only be left to profesionals. Talk to you later.
-David
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Old 07-29-2004, 03:18 AM   #12
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As I said before, I think it's a bad idea trying to mix dartfrogs and anoles in the same enclosure. But seriously, think about it. Is it really worth taking the chance of an anole eating your $40+ frogs? That would be a PRETTY expensive mistake. Can it be done? I'm sure it can and has, but I'd be willing to bet that more often than not, this combo has proven a bad one.

~Pat
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