Whitespots, but not ich? - Page 3
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > Specific Aspects of a Planted Tank > Fish


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-13-2008, 09:39 PM   #31
jaidexl
Planted Tank Guru
 
jaidexl's Avatar
 
PTrader: (42/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 33919
Posts: 3,485
Default

Sure, what you're saying is that it goes undetected, that's just like the camallanus scenario. But it must have first rode in as a parasite. Setting up a new tank with no real livestock will soon be loaded with bacteria that are capable of causing infections once fish are introduced, then become stressed and immunity drops. But there will be no parasites from the get-go unless it's a freak case, like if you cross contaminated it from an infected tank with a net, then added livestock which it was able to latch onto before dying.

If someone sees ich out of nowhere, then it could have rode in on a fish they bought long ago, then your theory of it existing unnoticed (which makes total sense to me, apparently some fish have a better resistance) would explain why it seems to come straight from the tank. Because in their mind there are no new fish, therefor it must have come from the tank.
jaidexl is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-13-2008, 09:51 PM   #32
MedRed
Wannabe Guru
 
MedRed's Avatar
 
PTrader: (27/100%)
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,590
Default

it came in with the fish. my brigittae came from the same source. I bought mine a week or so after minsc and mine came down with the same thing. maracide cleared it up in 5 days
__________________

I have slain all of the Dragons! You owe me!
MedRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2008, 09:51 PM   #33
jaidexl
Planted Tank Guru
 
jaidexl's Avatar
 
PTrader: (42/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 33919
Posts: 3,485
Default

You know, in discussing this, we just put some validity back into Dan-o's questions. If a certain amount of resistance can ward off severe and noticeable ich infection, and water quality/stress can effect immunity, then params should be able to play just as much of a roll in ich infection as bacterial.

Sorry for cutting you off so fast Dan-o, current mood is 'over analytical'.
jaidexl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2008, 11:36 PM   #34
Dan-o
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Goose Creek, SC USA
Posts: 20
Default

Good water quality is essential in keeping healthy fish and plants. Periodic monitoring of all the water parameters is the key to knowing what needs to be done to keep the tank environment within the life sustaining ranges of the various types of fish ect. Example: nitrate builds up faster than the bio system can safely remove it. Water changes are needed when the nitrate gets too high. Not checking the water quality is like driving without looking at the fuel gauge, tire pressure, or oil level.

Ick will thrive in a tank for long periods. One organism can infect a fish unnoticed and keep it going. This is the case in many reinfestations from "out of the blue" Good healthy fish with good immune systems have little difficulty warding off the parasite. Good water means healthy fish! :-)
Dan-o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2008, 02:41 AM   #35
Minsc
Wannabe Guru
 
Minsc's Avatar
 
PTrader: (58/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 1,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan-o View Post
Good water quality is essential in keeping healthy fish and plants. Periodic monitoring of all the water parameters is the key to knowing what needs to be done to keep the tank environment within the life sustaining ranges of the various types of fish ect. Example: nitrate builds up faster than the bio system can safely remove it. Water changes are needed when the nitrate gets too high. Not checking the water quality is like driving without looking at the fuel gauge, tire pressure, or oil level.
This is perfectly fine advice for someone new to keeping fish, with a fish only or lightly planted tank, none of which apply here.

In a well planted tank, the capacity for the plants to remove biological wastes vastly overwhelms the fishes capacity for producing it.
There are numerous planted tank techniques that never require water changes.
In this particular case, the nitrates are at zero, which I know because I keep getting cyanobacteria. I still haven't figured out how much nitrogen to add weekly

Watching the fish and plants with an experienced eye will tell much more the health of the tank than any drop checker or notoriously inaccurate nitrate test kit.
Minsc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2008, 03:10 AM   #36
Dan-o
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Goose Creek, SC USA
Posts: 20
Default

If you are convinced, then, that is that. I hope that others aren't so convinced.
Dan-o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2008, 03:58 AM   #37
MedRed
Wannabe Guru
 
MedRed's Avatar
 
PTrader: (27/100%)
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,590
Default

I have to agree with minsc. other than a co2 drop checker, a thermometer, and the random ph or kh test... i never check my parameters either. The only time on a fresh setup i've ever checked ammonia/nitrites/nitrates is when using aquasoil. Everything else gets biospira or superbac added on day 1 with the fish and I've never lost a single fish this way.

I think with experience having a master test kit on hand is great, but your visual inspections of the tank will take care of 99.9% of anything that starts to arise in a tank.

I don't recommend beginners operate this way at all, but you can tell if a fish or plant is happy and healthy and if not... why.
__________________

I have slain all of the Dragons! You owe me!
MedRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2008, 04:02 AM   #38
lauraleellbp
Fresh Fish Freak
 
lauraleellbp's Avatar
 
PTrader: (70/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 24,139
Default

I'm going to take the middle ground.

After keeping fish 25+ years, I don't test often, but I DO test any time I make changes in a tank, and ESPECIALLY if I have some sort of fish health problem.

Old tank syndrome is easy to creep up on fish; they are able to adapt fairly well to the extremely gradual buildups, and may not show any symptoms even to the trained eye- but eventually buildups start taking a toll on fish health.

I'd test the tank parameters.
__________________
Tampa Bay Aquarium Society - Next meeting Monday, August 11, 2014 @ 7:15pm- See ya there!

lauraleellbp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2008, 05:09 AM   #39
Dan-o
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Goose Creek, SC USA
Posts: 20
Default

Any of you successfully keep discus or ever try to breed certain fish that have particular requirements? Do you think the "visual" water quality evaluation is the best way to go? I test everything once or twice a month and do reasonable water changes. I have moderately planted low tech tanks with low fish loads. I get ph drift and nitrate build up which if left unnoticed would result in stressed fish. When you see fish behaving in a stressed manor, it is usually too late. Why risk the health of the tank on your intuition. I don't mean to be critical of the practices of others, but wish only to inject food for thought.
Dan-o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2008, 05:22 AM   #40
MedRed
Wannabe Guru
 
MedRed's Avatar
 
PTrader: (27/100%)
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,590
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan-o View Post
Any of you successfully keep discus or ever try to breed certain fish that have particular requirements? Do you think the "visual" water quality evaluation is the best way to go? I test everything once or twice a month and do reasonable water changes. I have moderately planted low tech tanks with low fish loads. I get ph drift and nitrate build up which if left unnoticed would result in stressed fish. When you see fish behaving in a stressed manor, it is usually too late. Why risk the health of the tank on your intuition. I don't mean to be critical of the practices of others, but wish only to inject food for thought.

The amount of weekly water changes I go through takes care of nitrates/ph. I test ph every now and then for giggles in all of my tanks and i've never noticed anything out of the ordinary.

The vast majority of fauna that I keep are rare and/or expensive. I probably clean my filters more often than the average person; I'll exhaust a bag of purigen every now and then; I change my water every saturday; I check kh every now and then to prevent a ph crash; and all is well. I've done this for 15 years now and it's worked everywhere from the hard alkaline water of north texas to the soft acidic water of portland.

Judging by the constant breeding of my apistos and some of the other less likely to spawn on their own species... I think everyone is happy with this set up. It may not be the most full proof way to go... but i've been in the hobby almost 20 years and i've been doing things this way for 16 years.
__________________

I have slain all of the Dragons! You owe me!
MedRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2008, 05:29 AM   #41
lauraleellbp
Fresh Fish Freak
 
lauraleellbp's Avatar
 
PTrader: (70/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 24,139
Default

Dan-o, you do need to keep in mind that most people running high tech tanks on this forum are doing EI dosing or something similar, along with weekly 50% water changes.

Low tech is another story, and a "Natural Planted Tank" with 0 water changes EVER, is yet another story separate from everything else.

I have actually seen a gorgeous NPT with very healthy, not deformed discus... I was surprised, but the tank was planted very heavily and the owner balanced things out very carefully. He'd had it going for several years last I remember...
__________________
Tampa Bay Aquarium Society - Next meeting Monday, August 11, 2014 @ 7:15pm- See ya there!

lauraleellbp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2008, 05:32 AM   #42
Minsc
Wannabe Guru
 
Minsc's Avatar
 
PTrader: (58/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 1,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan-o View Post
Any of you successfully keep discus or ever try to breed certain fish that have particular requirements? Do you think the "visual" water quality evaluation is the best way to go? I test everything once or twice a month and do reasonable water changes. I have moderately planted low tech tanks with low fish loads. I get ph drift and nitrate build up which if left unnoticed would result in stressed fish. When you see fish behaving in a stressed manor, it is usually too late. Why risk the health of the tank on your intuition. I don't mean to be critical of the practices of others, but wish only to inject food for thought.
Since the basis of your argument seems to be that people should take good care of their fish, I think we probably agree on more than we disagree on

I do have quite a bit to say on the matter, but I am currently on my third whiskey and coke, so any coherent discussion will have to wait until tomorrow.

Cheers.
-Sean
Minsc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2008, 07:49 PM   #43
jaidexl
Planted Tank Guru
 
jaidexl's Avatar
 
PTrader: (42/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 33919
Posts: 3,485
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lauraleellbp View Post
Dan-o, you do need to keep in mind that most people running high tech tanks on this forum are doing EI dosing or something similar, along with weekly 50% water changes.
That was the missing part of this conversation. When you're mixing your own RO and change 50% a week, there's no need to waist reagents and time when you already know what the parameters are. I don't test my high techs either, unless I'm trying to confirm an issue I see visually, problems show themselves fast in high tech/EI and it never has to do with poor water quality, rather poor nutrient balance/CO2 etc.


I don't test the reef tanks anymore either, RO/DI top-offs and weekly water changes keep all SW params in line. The live rock does a good job of eating nitrate, probably better than our plants.
jaidexl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 04:54 PM   #44
kcsport
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 26
Default

Any follow up on your ich problem. I now have ich since bringing home new fish.
kcsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 07:29 PM   #45
Minsc
Wannabe Guru
 
Minsc's Avatar
 
PTrader: (58/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 1,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcsport View Post
Any follow up on your ich problem. I now have ich since bringing home new fish.
Ich attack got rid of it in a fish only tank, but didn't work in the high tech planted tank. Maracide did work, with no negative affects on fish or plants.
Minsc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012