Low Tech - Higher Salt Level Tank
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > General Planted Tank Forums > Low Tech Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-30-2008, 09:31 AM   #1
Homer_Simpson
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Posts: 1,785
Question

Low Tech - Higher Salt Level Tank


I was wanting to start another experimental tank. I don't know if you would define it as a true brackish tank or not as I don't plan to use true brackish water fish. It is all about "risk minimization" vs "risk elimination" which I don't believe is realistic or even attainable. The idea was to set up a low tech tank, and use aquarium salt consistently in amounts that would not harm the plants but be of therapeutic value to fish and possibly afford some protection against parastitic outbreaks. I was not looking at the tank as a substitute for good tank maintenance but just as something to afford greater protection to inhabitants.

It is said that : "Almost all aquarium fish can tolerate brackish water with one Tablespoon of Aquarium Salt per each five gallons of water. For example, all Livebearers, all Cichlids, all Goldfish and Koi, all Barbs, all Gouramis, and all Danios can tolerate this amount of Aquarium Salt. "
Source: Brackish Water Fish - Aquariums and Tanks at AquariumFish.net.

So, there appears to some flexibilty with choosing salt tolerant fish.

Now, that leaves the question of how tolerant plants would be to such a dosage. I heard that some plants can tolerate specific gravity up to 1.015 max.

Anarcharis, anubias, hornwort, java fern, waterm sprite, java moss, hygrophilia polysperma, are said to have this tolerance.

So, my questions, for anyone who has any experience with this are: (1) Besides Java moss, Java fern, and water sprite has anyone found other species that are more or less salt tolerant and up to what level. I am thinking of using 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons. Can anyone confirm if 1 tablespoon of aquarium salt per 5 gallons results in a specific gravity over 1.015. (2) Is this even doable with respect to its effect(s) on long term healthy plant growth. I am more looking to tear a Natural Planted Tank that is not doing so well(not blaming the method; I just failed with the method and want to try something else) and replace it with this type of setup. Fortunately, I have all the plants and additional clippings from other tanks if I need them. I also have some Leonardite and Seachem Onyx left over from another project to use as a substrate for this project, so cost is not an issue.

Any suggestions/feedback would be most appreciated. Many thanks. P.S. I know that there are many people who may be quick to dismiss ideas based on what they think. Not to be rude, but I am only looking for feedback from those that have tried something like this, and have some experience with this kind of setup. No offense to anyone, but I am not looking for "I don't think it can work" responses. I am a man of Science. If you have evidence to back up your claims as to why you "don't think it can work," please post it. I am all ears.
Homer_Simpson is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-30-2008, 09:56 AM   #2
fshfanatic
Planted Tank Guru
 
fshfanatic's Avatar
 
PTrader: (24/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,279
Default

I would hardly consider one tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons brackish. Not sure if that would even register on a hydrometer. Also, using Aquarium salt wont make your tank brackish, it will just give you salty water. Brackish/Marine has many trace elements and other minerals in the water. I would never use anything other than a marine salt mix. But that is just me.

Its been at least a year since I had a brackish tank, but I seem to remember it being closer to a 1/4 CUP per 5-10 gallons to get it up to around 1.010. Cant remember. I am doing a water change in my Marine tank this weekend and I will let you know for sure.
__________________
Ehfipimp #273 ( Eheim Classic: 2260, 2217, Eheim Ecco: 2236, 2232 ) Fluval FX5

fshfanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2008, 10:02 AM   #3
KurtG
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Annapolis, MD
Posts: 368
Default

My background is also science-Marine Science and I hate to dismiss your idea, but I think it is the change is salinity that is therapeutic to freshwater fish, not a constant level. It is the same as dipping a saltwater fish in freshwater. The osmotic shock is too great for the parasites, but the fish is able to overcome this stress, at least for a limited time.

That said, you can do your experiment though I don't think it will mean very much unless you purposely stock diseased fish. You won't even know if any parasites are present. I've had aqauriums set up for 10 years without noticing any disease problems in my fish. There are certainly parasites that are specific to fresh, brackish, and marine salinity regimes. Hence again, I believe it is the shock that affords the treatment not a consistent salinity.
__________________
75g 3 T8s 2x OD, XP3, pres. CO2,
KurtG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2008, 12:05 PM   #4
Homer_Simpson
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Posts: 1,785
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtG View Post
My background is also science-Marine Science and I hate to dismiss your idea, but I think it is the change is salinity that is therapeutic to freshwater fish, not a constant level. It is the same as dipping a saltwater fish in freshwater. The osmotic shock is too great for the parasites, but the fish is able to overcome this stress, at least for a limited time.

That said, you can do your experiment though I don't think it will mean very much unless you purposely stock diseased fish. You won't even know if any parasites are present. I've had aqauriums set up for 10 years without noticing any disease problems in my fish. There are certainly parasites that are specific to fresh, brackish, and marine salinity regimes. Hence again, I believe it is the shock that affords the treatment not a consistent salinity.
Okay, do you have any links to scientific literature to support your shock theory vs consistent salinity as the mechanism in play. Please post, I would be interested in reading up on it. Thanks. And I am aware that parasites would not be present at the outset. This was more to test its value in preventing the spread of parasites from newly introduced parasite infested fish(which would not be quarantined) to otherwise healthy fish in the tank. Those fish coming from the petstore tank with no salt, that would be introduced into a tank with a level may well undergo your shock mechanism idea.
Homer_Simpson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2008, 02:55 PM   #5
susankat
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
susankat's Avatar
 
PTrader: (18/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tulsa, Ok
Posts: 806
Default

Brackish plants

First there are the Brackish-Tolerant Freshwater Plants. These plants can live in water with a specific gravity up to 1.003:

Anubias barteri/nana

Ceratophyllum demersum a.k.a. Foxtail or Hornwort

Ceratopteris cornuta a.k.a. Watersprite or Broad-Leaf Watersprite

Crinum thaianum a.k.a. Onion Plant

Cryptocoryne wendtii

Hygrophila spp.

Vallisneria spp. (except smaller species like Vallisneria spiralis which tend to be more fussy)

Vesicularia Dubyana a.k.a. Java Moss (this plant will actually handle a S.G. up to 1.005+ like those listed in the next section)

Secondly there are the Naturally Occurring Brackish-Water Plants and Brackish-Tolerant Marine Plants. Most of these plants can be found living in water with a specific gravity up to 1.005+.

Bacopa monnieri a.k.a. Water Hyssop or Moneywort

Chaetomorpha a.k.a. Spaghetti algae (A marine macro-algae, this species must be acclimated slowly from true marine water to brackish.)

Crinum calamistratum and pedunculatum a.k.a. Brackish Onion Plant or Pond Onion Plant (calamistratum) River Lilly or Mangrove Lilly or Spider Lilly (penunculatum)

Echinodorus tenellus a.k.a. Narrow-leaf Chain Sword

Lilaeopsis brasiliensis a.k.a. Brazilian Micro-Sword or Micro-Sword Grass

Microsorium pteropus a.k.a. Java Fern

Mangroves (Red, White, Black, Grey they all will live in anything from mildly brackish to marine water)

Seagrasses i.e. Turtle Grass or Maidenís Hair or Swamp Grass (several varying species will aclimate to brackish waters)

These were added later:

Dracaena fragrans a.k.a. Ribbon Plant or Corn plant or Dragon Plant

Nymphaea zenkeri a.k.a. Tiger Lotus [both the red and green varieties.] This is a true lotus and, if allowed, will produce fragrant white to pink flowers. Usually this is a brckish-tolerant plant [1.003 or lower] but I'm experimenting with mine around 1.006. Which is more in the range of plants that are naturally brackish.
_________________
susankat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 01:52 AM   #6
Homer_Simpson
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Posts: 1,785
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by susankat View Post
Brackish plants

First there are the Brackish-Tolerant Freshwater Plants. These plants can live in water with a specific gravity up to 1.003:

Anubias barteri/nana

Ceratophyllum demersum a.k.a. Foxtail or Hornwort

Ceratopteris cornuta a.k.a. Watersprite or Broad-Leaf Watersprite

Crinum thaianum a.k.a. Onion Plant

Cryptocoryne wendtii

Hygrophila spp.

Vallisneria spp. (except smaller species like Vallisneria spiralis which tend to be more fussy)

Vesicularia Dubyana a.k.a. Java Moss (this plant will actually handle a S.G. up to 1.005+ like those listed in the next section)

Secondly there are the Naturally Occurring Brackish-Water Plants and Brackish-Tolerant Marine Plants. Most of these plants can be found living in water with a specific gravity up to 1.005+.

Bacopa monnieri a.k.a. Water Hyssop or Moneywort

Chaetomorpha a.k.a. Spaghetti algae (A marine macro-algae, this species must be acclimated slowly from true marine water to brackish.)

Crinum calamistratum and pedunculatum a.k.a. Brackish Onion Plant or Pond Onion Plant (calamistratum) River Lilly or Mangrove Lilly or Spider Lilly (penunculatum)

Echinodorus tenellus a.k.a. Narrow-leaf Chain Sword

Lilaeopsis brasiliensis a.k.a. Brazilian Micro-Sword or Micro-Sword Grass

Microsorium pteropus a.k.a. Java Fern

Mangroves (Red, White, Black, Grey they all will live in anything from mildly brackish to marine water)

Seagrasses i.e. Turtle Grass or Maidenís Hair or Swamp Grass (several varying species will aclimate to brackish waters)

These were added later:

Dracaena fragrans a.k.a. Ribbon Plant or Corn plant or Dragon Plant

Nymphaea zenkeri a.k.a. Tiger Lotus [both the red and green varieties.] This is a true lotus and, if allowed, will produce fragrant white to pink flowers. Usually this is a brckish-tolerant plant [1.003 or lower] but I'm experimenting with mine around 1.006. Which is more in the range of plants that are naturally brackish.
_________________

Many thanks
Homer_Simpson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 09:56 PM   #7
fishscale
Planted Tank Guru
 
fishscale's Avatar
 
PTrader: (12/100%)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 3,895
Default

I'm not exactly sure I understand what you are trying to do. Are you trying to create a slightly brackish quarantine tank, or are you just trying to do a slightly brackish planted tank? Personally, I would just choose fish and plants suited to this habitat, if you are going for a brackish planted tank. I've always wanted to keep bumblebee gobies, and I hear that most of those ones found in LFS prefer brackish to fresh. Interesting idea you have going, keep us updated.
__________________
Eheim Pimp #254, Eheim Wolverine #1

55 Gallon Work in progress
10 Gallon Shrimp Tank
10 Gallon Planted QT
20 Gallon Shrimp Tank (Work in progress)

fishscale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 11:04 PM   #8
annedee
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: cincinnati, oh
Posts: 46
Default

I am currently trying to get a planted mbuna tank going. This means higher salinity, harder water, and higher ph than most everyone on these boards. I've had a lot of issues in the three months it's been going - with the plants that is. My fish are super happy - and a sick red zebra (I think velvet) recovered after being the tank for 48 hours. My plants include java fern, water sprite, jungle val, anubias nana,moneywort, amazon sword, wisteria, pennywort. The first 4 types have been in the tank since the beginning. The java is not happy - black spots, dying leaves, dark tips on new leaves. The Anubias died a bit, but seem to be recovering. The water sprite grows very slowly and older leaves are always dying. The jungle val is doing great with no problems thus far. Now I can't tell you if any of this has to do with the salt - Used a little more than 1tbsp/5gallons for the first two months, and have now switched to marine salt. There many be a million other issues in my tank, but things are growing slowly. Either way, Homer, you aren't the only one!
annedee is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012