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Old 01-24-2014, 08:47 PM   #16
JeffE
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Please make some trimming and tank maintenance videos Tom!!! Even if its just for the members section of your forum!
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Old 01-28-2014, 04:26 AM   #17
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I prefer a hybrid style. As Tom said: "I see no good reason NOT to incorporate nice hardscaping into dutch general plant grouping guidelines". Dutch tanks look stunningly beautiful. However, at the same time they don't look as natural. Also the frequent maintenance required to keep them in top shape. This is my tank that I set up in June using hardwood and anubias to provide a framework. Then I added different plants to provide contrast in color, shape, size, and texture... trying to make it look as natural as possible. Here is the link to the video. The DW was purchased from Tom by the way.

125G hybrid style:

http://youtu.be/7CM927yt1Sc
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Old 01-28-2014, 07:17 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MB2 View Post
I prefer a hybrid style. As Tom said: "I see no good reason NOT to incorporate nice hardscaping into dutch general plant grouping guidelines". Dutch tanks look stunningly beautiful. However, at the same time they don't look as natural. Also the frequent maintenance required to keep them in top shape. This is my tank that I set up in June using hardwood and anubias to provide a framework. Then I added different plants to provide contrast in color, shape, size, and texture... trying to make it look as natural as possible. Here is the link to the video. The DW was purchased from Tom by the way.

125G hybrid style:

http://youtu.be/7CM927yt1Sc
That's a screaming tank there.
Those Anubias will root over the wood and look really really cool as things age.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:31 PM   #19
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I see a very good reason to NOT include Hardscape and CO2 also to a a Traditional Dutch Aquascape....because it's no longer Traditional. I offer the easiest way to deal with the "debate" is add a classification.

Traditional would be No CO2, No heated Cables and hold plant selection to the roughly 20-50 back then. Keep the traditional Dutch tank a test of aquaculture skills without aide/crutches of technology. Promote the ridged rules of days gone buy. Don't dumb it down for the weak of heart. Keep it a true challenge of the hobby.

~ Create a "Modern" Dutch Classification to reflect curent trends in equipment & taste in appearance.

Last edited by DogFish; 01-29-2014 at 03:11 AM.. Reason: sp
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:11 PM   #20
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I see a very good reason to NOT include Hardscape and CO2 also to a a Traditional Dutch Aquascape....because it's no longer Traditional. I offer the easiest way to deal with the "debate" is add a classification.

Traditional would be No CO2, No heated Cables and hold plant selection to the roughly 20-50 back then. Keep the traditional Dutch tank a test of aquaculture skills without aide/crutches of technology. Promote the ridged rules of days gone but. Don't dumb it down for the weak of heart. Keep it a true challenge of the hobby.

~ Create a "Modern" Dutch Classification to reflect curent trends in equipment & taste in appearance.
I think CO2 is a given at this point, that war was lost back in the 1970's and 1980's. There was a war in the hobby over it, but few here would know about that unless they are 50+ years old and/or were kids like me.

CO2 adds much more to the actual horticulture aspects, whereas hardscaping does not. Heater cables was all Dupla. On the hardscaping, I would agree on this line of argument.

Aquarist never had much choice prior to 1970's for CO2. There are references of DIY CO2 going back to 1962. But these were not widely used and shared among hobbyists interested in aquatic plants at the time. Dupla really was the company that brought CO2 gas to the mainstream aquarium market. And they saw the results from other hobbyists in NL's and Germany etc prior to taking that risk.

There is a big jump in the older styles that had no CO2 vs the newer versions. But..........prior, they simply had no other choice.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:04 PM   #21
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Here is one video that i just found on how to maintain the dutch style. Hope this helps and i hope this thread keep going on as im vey interested in learning dutch too

http://youtu.be/ZHwBMXHgOU0
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:42 AM   #22
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I think CO2 is a given at this point, that war was lost back in the 1970's and 1980's. There was a war in the hobby over it, but few here would know about that unless they are 50+ years old and/or were kids like me...
I'm one of those 50+ dinosaurs and my LT memory is still pretty good

I find value in preserving pieces of our past. Most "Advances" developed by mankind are to make life simpler/reduce effort. The negative as I see it is that technological advances tend to lessen the need for human skill.

I prefer to see new Aquascaping disciplines developed & celebrated vs. traditions being neutered.
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Old 01-29-2014, 05:09 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MB2 View Post
I prefer a hybrid style. As Tom said: "I see no good reason NOT to incorporate nice hardscaping into dutch general plant grouping guidelines". Dutch tanks look stunningly beautiful. However, at the same time they don't look as natural. Also the frequent maintenance required to keep them in top shape. This is my tank that I set up in June using hardwood and anubias to provide a framework. Then I added different plants to provide contrast in color, shape, size, and texture... trying to make it look as natural as possible. Here is the link to the video. The DW was purchased from Tom by the way.

125G hybrid style:

http://youtu.be/7CM927yt1Sc
Đẹp quá anh ơi !
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Old 01-30-2014, 03:14 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MB2 View Post
I prefer a hybrid style. As Tom said: "I see no good reason NOT to incorporate nice hardscaping into dutch general plant grouping guidelines". Dutch tanks look stunningly beautiful. However, at the same time they don't look as natural. Also the frequent maintenance required to keep them in top shape. This is my tank that I set up in June using hardwood and anubias to provide a framework. Then I added different plants to provide contrast in color, shape, size, and texture... trying to make it look as natural as possible. Here is the link to the video. The DW was purchased from Tom by the way.

125G hybrid style:

http://youtu.be/7CM927yt1Sc
Wow, that's a really nice looking tank, MB2. I would like to know more about your tank. I saw that you were using BML lights but what kind of filtration, substrate, etc. You need to have a journal thread for that tank as it would benefit others to be able to see what a beauty that is.
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Old 01-30-2014, 03:26 AM   #25
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Đẹp quá anh ơi !
Cám ơn em.
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Old 01-30-2014, 03:28 AM   #26
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Wow, that's a really nice looking tank, MB2. I would like to know more about your tank. I saw that you were using BML lights but what kind of filtration, substrate, etc. You need to have a journal thread for that tank as it would benefit others to be able to see what a beauty that is.
Ua hua, I am planning to, most likely this wkend to share with others the details...
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Old 01-30-2014, 07:43 PM   #27
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I'm one of those 50+ dinosaurs and my LT memory is still pretty good

I find value in preserving pieces of our past. Most "Advances" developed by mankind are to make life simpler/reduce effort. The negative as I see it is that technological advances tend to lessen the need for human skill.

I prefer to see new Aquascaping disciplines developed & celebrated vs. traditions being neutered.
I agree totally.

I champion the non CO2 methods as well. I do not accept that they must look yucky. Mine don't

And if you can grow them that way, then doing the Dutch style can be done also.

Big issue is that many do not try those methods and take pics, do scapes, promote like Nature style and ADA do.
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Old 01-31-2014, 03:20 AM   #28
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I agree totally.

I champion the non CO2 methods as well. I do not accept that they must look yucky. Mine don't

And if you can grow them that way, then doing the Dutch style can be done also.

Big issue is that many do not try those methods and take pics, do scapes, promote like Nature style and ADA do.
Tom, I feel to many miss the point of celebrating the challenges various aquascape styles offer and tend get tunnel vision on methodology prejudices.

I also think it's basic human nature to get comfortable in a hobby sector we have relative success with. We grow more by failing at new challenges than we do repeating old success.

That said maybe it's time I try a formal Dutch Aquascape using only stem plants and step outside the comfort zone of my crypts
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Old 01-31-2014, 03:49 AM   #29
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Tom, I feel to many miss the point of celebrating the challenges various aquascape styles offer and tend get tunnel vision on methodology prejudices.

I also think it's basic human nature to get comfortable in a hobby sector we have relative success with. We grow more by failing at new challenges than we do repeating old success.

That said maybe it's time I try a formal Dutch Aquascape using only stem plants and step outside the comfort zone of my crypts
I agree with you. I love to try new challenges that is why I came from the reef side to the planted side of the hobby. I thought it would be something different and I would have all new things to learn even though there is some overlap between the two. I would love to do a traditional Dutch tank but I would have a hard time following all the rules of the traditional style. With that being said I think there can be a new style which incorporates some of the traditional Dutch scapes but as with anything there can an evolution to it. The fact of the matter is I'm a little too intimidated to try a traditional Dutch tank myself at this moment so I will just have to wait and see what you do. And I will be holding you to it because you said it on an internet forum so that means you have to follow through.
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Old 01-31-2014, 04:05 AM   #30
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ua hua - DEAL!

I've been doing a lot of variations on the same tank, getting into a safe rut. So maybe time is right to accept a new challenge in this hobby.

I've recently pulled a lot of crypts out of my 40 and replaced them with S. repens. A bit of a test to see how they will respond to my PAR38 Led pendents, MTS, Non CO2 tank. If that goes well, next would be to figure out how to work some of my existing java fern in(if Java fern is acceptable)

Also need to locate the Old school Dutch rules. That would be what I'd go for the retro 60's/70's Dutch style tank. Groovey!!
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