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Old 10-16-2013, 02:57 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
A simple system works best and then you can later add treatments on top of that.
You don't think that 3+ inches of sand and some plants is a simple system?

I'm not going to argue with you on your other points because you'd lose and then quit commenting pretty rapidly, but maybe you could look at this thread as a learning opportunity, rather than yet another opportunity for you to spread your profound wisdom.

Have you ever tried a proper FWDSB in a planted tank? You might end up liking it.
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:52 PM   #47
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Yes, one negative aspect of the DSB is the space it takes up in the tank.

I see you mentioned algae turf scrubbers, when i was keeping reef tanks i was heavily into using algae turf scrubbers, it vas a very effective filtration methode.I guess in planted tanks plants is our best filtration unit

I will keep my DSB tank running to see how it goes.

I am soon starting up another planted tank, but i am struggeling to choose what to use as substrate. I am thinking of an combination of cat litter(molar clay) and pool filter sand, maybe some dirt mixed in, not shure.

My daughters dirt tank is growing plants as a champ, but i dont like the yellow tint the water get, is it any way to run a dirt tank not getting colored water?

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I do not think there are many microbial benefits to a DSB, there's just no need to wastr the space ina FW aquarium with plants.

Plants are far superior to export than bacteria ina DSB.

DSB are useful for marine aquarist who wish to save $ on salt cost for water changes. But here again, the marine aquarist could use macro algae or mangroves/emergent species, seasgrasses, but most find that the macro algae do the best job. In those cases, the micro invertebrates and macroinvertebrates form a lot of close relationships not found in FW systems.

You can also use micro algae, search ATS, algae turf scrubbers. These are better suited to smaller NO3 and PO4 export and can handle more abuse and ranges of NO3/PO4 than macro algae can. But macro algae can export more volume of the ferts per unit area and per light PAR.

One way to test this is to remove all the plants and add KNO3 and see how much is lost over time.

Plant roots add carbon and O2 that will help some bacteria, but the denitrifiers should be okay without that source.

You'd need to do this a few times, say 4-5 weeks. So this is a better method for a FISH only tank, not one with plants. You start havign a very hard time figuring out who is doing what if you start removing NO3 via bacteria, water changes, plants, macro algae, mangroves, clean filters etc etc.
A simple system works best and then you can later add treatments on top of that.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:33 PM   #48
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what are you using for your dirt? I wouldn't expect yellow water just from using dirt... unless maybe there was no cap on the dirt? or tannins leaching from something?
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:21 AM   #49
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If it's something like potting soil, then it's probably tiny pieces of wood that are mixed in.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:48 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnad View Post
I am soon starting up another planted tank, but i am struggeling to choose what to use as substrate. I am thinking of an combination of cat litter(molar clay) and pool filter sand, maybe some dirt mixed in, not shure.

My daughters dirt tank is growing plants but i dont like the yellow tint the water gets. Is it any way to run a dirt tank not getting colored water?
The tannins from the soil is leaching through what you used to cap it. I had that problem when I used play sand to cap the dirt. Put a bag of purigen in your filter. It will absorb the tannins.

For substrate in my next tank I am using -
Vigoro organic Potting mix from Home Depot ------ -$ 4
mixed with Red Bag Kitty litter-------------------------------- $ 2
at ration 4:1
Then topping with river sand from Landscaping Co $ 3
Total aprox ----------------------------------------------------------------$10
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:44 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilde View Post
The tannins from the soil is leaching through what you used to cap it. I had that problem when I used play sand to cap the dirt. Put a bag of purigen in your filter. It will absorb the tannins.

For substrate in my next tank I am using -
Vigoro organic Potting mix from Home Depot ------ -$ 4
mixed with Red Bag Kitty litter-------------------------------- $ 2
at ration 4:1
Then topping with river sand from Landscaping Co $ 3
Total aprox ----------------------------------------------------------------$10
Sound like a good substrate to use
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:17 PM   #52
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Quote:
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In a FW planted tank, and I'd assume a SW tank with a tonne of Macroalgae and mangroves this wouldn't be a problem at all, like you said. The FW DSB concept is virtualy identical to the walstadt method, except that the bacteria and "soil" establish themselves over time in the form of broken down detritus, and that the DSB concept uses layers of decreasing oxygenation to break down waste rather than using mostly oxygenated, high concentration bacteria.

This pretty well demonstrates how the flow of things works.


I wouldn't say that most planted tanks operate on the DSB concept, actually I'd say most don't. I can see why you would think that, but most of the substrates that I've seen used aren't fine enough or deep enough to create that full anoxic region. Most 2-3" substrate beds do seem to create the anaerobic region, but most don't go anoxic.

This ^ is the reason people are scared of DSBs. If a region of the substrate goes anaerobic without an anoxic region below it it starts bubbling straight Hydrogen Sulfide. Most people that think they have a sufficiently deep DSB, actually only have a partial DSB, which has lead to catastrophic tank deaths, this is blamed on the DSB concept, and it's shunned by generations of tank-keeps.
Research on marine tanks with shallow sandbeds showed that they were almost as effective at removing nitrates as DSB sandbeds, because even in shallow sandbeds, you end up with anaerobic zones which support bacteria. I would think that freshwater anaerobic bacteria would be similar?

Great thread, subscribed and following along. Appreciate the links. Bacteria happens to be a favorite topic of mine.
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:54 AM   #53
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Research on marine tanks with shallow sandbeds showed that they were almost as effective at removing nitrates as DSB sandbeds, because even in shallow sandbeds, you end up with anaerobic zones which support bacteria. I would think that freshwater anaerobic bacteria would be similar?

Great thread, subscribed and following along. Appreciate the links. Bacteria happens to be a favorite topic of mine.
I think the species of bacteria are the same. If they are in fact different I think the only difference would be salt tolerance, you probably know more about that than myself.

Do you have any links to that research? It sounds like it makes sense. The thing that comes to my mind with it is that the random anaerobic pockets would be vulnerable to being disturbed and going aerobic, possibly killing off the bacteria in that zone. Also you don't get that nifty (but not entirely necessary Anoxic zone.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:36 AM   #54
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I think the species of bacteria are the same. If they are in fact different I think the only difference would be salt tolerance, you probably know more about that than myself.

Do you have any links to that research? It sounds like it makes sense. The thing that comes to my mind with it is that the random anaerobic pockets would be vulnerable to being disturbed and going aerobic, possibly killing off the bacteria in that zone. Also you don't get that nifty (but not entirely necessary Anoxic zone.
The species are different, I spoke to a bacterologist who researches bacteria out of MSU, and he confirmed that while the bacteria in the two environments perform similar functions, they are indeed different species.

Its been quite some time since I've read through these articles, but here are the links;
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature#h5

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005...?searchterm=an
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:50 AM   #55
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I always wondered why DSB were not employed in freshwater tanks. Although the bacteria aren't the same, there are still tons of species that will inhabit the aerobic, anaerobic and anoxic regions of freshwater systems.

The trick to is have everything in balance. The anoxic region producing H2S as the end product of an inefficient electron transport chain would indeed scare me. I wouldn't want that H2S bubbling up and slaying my tank with toxic fumes. Also isn't ethanol produced in the anoxic region as well? Fermentation works with no o2 and human cells even use it (although instead of ethanol fermentation we use lactic acid). Will this substrate make our fish drunk?

I've been kind of trying the same thing, but instead I'm using a 2 inch layer of organic potting soil + 3 inches of fluorite sand. The tank has been setup for 5 weeks and the plants and fish are doing very well. I still have a filter on there, and it will stay on there, but I wanted to see how a deeper soil substrate would work. I like the deeper sand cap because it's much cleaner.

Last edited by Positron; 10-18-2013 at 05:54 AM.. Reason: more info
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:12 AM   #56
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I'll start reading into that Wy, thanks!
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I always wondered why DSB were not employed in freshwater tanks. Although the bacteria aren't the same, there are still tons of species that will inhabit the aerobic, anaerobic and anoxic regions of freshwater systems.

The trick to is have everything in balance. The anoxic region producing H2S as the end product of an inefficient electron transport chain would indeed scare me. I wouldn't want that H2S bubbling up and slaying my tank with toxic fumes. Also isn't ethanol produced in the anoxic region as well? Fermentation works with no o2 and human cells even use it (although instead of ethanol fermentation we use lactic acid). Will this substrate make our fish drunk?

I've been kind of trying the same thing, but instead I'm using a 2 inch layer of organic potting soil + 3 inches of fluorite sand. The tank has been setup for 5 weeks and the plants and fish are doing very well. I still have a filter on there, and it will stay on there, but I wanted to see how a deeper soil substrate would work. I like the deeper sand cap because it's much cleaner.
That tank sounds interesting! Lots and lots of substrate.

I think that the H2S bubbles are way overplayed, I mean it stinks, but it's barely soluble in water. Unless it's put through a really good reactor or flys through a fish's gills it probably won't dissolve enough to hurt anything. (To clarify, I've never had them, so IDK for sure.)

To my understanding of chemistry, Ethanol doesn't quite dissolve. The instant it's produced in an aqueous environment it creates water and an insoluble hydrocarbon.

Edit: I feel like this thread has been hijacked, do you mind Jnad?
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:20 AM   #57
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I think it dissolves fine. 40% abv vodka does not have any insoluble components. I also tend to agree with you when it comes to H2S. I see it bubbling out of the substrate once in awhile; although it could simply be plants pumping O2 in the substrate by it's roots...or even still co2 gas from decomposition. I never smell any rotten eggs. This leads me to believe that the anaerobic region is doing it's job and converting H2S to things like: co2, N2, and O2 (from roots).

Last edited by Positron; 10-18-2013 at 06:26 AM.. Reason: sasaf
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:07 PM   #58
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No i dont feel this thread has been hijacked. I am reading your posts but i dont have the experience to comment so mutch, i have just coverted from saltwater to planted tanks .

Jnad

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Originally Posted by Legot View Post
I'll start reading into that Wy, thanks!

That tank sounds interesting! Lots and lots of substrate.

I think that the H2S bubbles are way overplayed, I mean it stinks, but it's barely soluble in water. Unless it's put through a really good reactor or flys through a fish's gills it probably won't dissolve enough to hurt anything. (To clarify, I've never had them, so IDK for sure.)

To my understanding of chemistry, Ethanol doesn't quite dissolve. The instant it's produced in an aqueous environment it creates water and an insoluble hydrocarbon.

Edit: I feel like this thread has been hijacked, do you mind Jnad?
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:41 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
I do not think there are many microbial benefits to a DSB, there's just no need to wastr the space ina FW aquarium with plants.

Plants are far superior to export than bacteria ina DSB.

DSB are useful for marine aquarist who wish to save $ on salt cost for water changes. But here again, the marine aquarist could use macro algae or mangroves/emergent species, seasgrasses, but most find that the macro algae do the best job. In those cases, the micro invertebrates and macroinvertebrates form a lot of close relationships not found in FW systems.

You can also use micro algae, search ATS, algae turf scrubbers. These are better suited to smaller NO3 and PO4 export and can handle more abuse and ranges of NO3/PO4 than macro algae can. But macro algae can export more volume of the ferts per unit area and per light PAR.

One way to test this is to remove all the plants and add KNO3 and see how much is lost over time.

Plant roots add carbon and O2 that will help some bacteria, but the denitrifiers should be okay without that source.

You'd need to do this a few times, say 4-5 weeks. So this is a better method for a FISH only tank, not one with plants. You start havign a very hard time figuring out who is doing what if you start removing NO3 via bacteria, water changes, plants, macro algae, mangroves, clean filters etc etc.
A simple system works best and then you can later add treatments on top of that.
Based on what I know about planted tanks, I would argue that most planted tanks are actually employing the principle of a DSB, especially those that are dirted or using sand rather than gravel. The argument that I frequently see among those that use sand is that it stays cleaner, as the debris stays on top of the substrate. The truth is that the water and debris that has dissolved into the water are going to make their way through the dirt or sand. Down in those deep layers of dirt and sand there are certainly anoxic/anaerobic spots where the anaerobic bacteria are going to thrive.
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