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Old 09-21-2013, 02:02 PM   #31
dasob85
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Ahh okay. thanks for the info jnad.

and sorry for the slight thread jack response to legot:
Yes I will be starting a journal when I have time to set this up probably early november. I got 2 40b from the petco $1/gal sale and a metal rack from lowes in storage now so the bottom 40 will be the sump. Will run the lights at the same time to try the algae scrubber idea. I was thinking 3 inches in the display and 5 inches in the sump myself :p I dont mind the loss of tank space as I will put mostly bottom feeder fish anyway since those are my favorite. probably only keep some amanos in the sump
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Old 09-23-2013, 07:11 AM   #32
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Ahh okay. thanks for the info jnad.

and sorry for the slight thread jack response to legot:
Yes I will be starting a journal when I have time to set this up probably early november. I got 2 40b from the petco $1/gal sale and a metal rack from lowes in storage now so the bottom 40 will be the sump. Will run the lights at the same time to try the algae scrubber idea. I was thinking 3 inches in the display and 5 inches in the sump myself :p I dont mind the loss of tank space as I will put mostly bottom feeder fish anyway since those are my favorite. probably only keep some amanos in the sump
Thanks for indulging me I'll be sure to follow that journal when you start it. Can I suggest more than 5"? Bringing the substrate up in the tank really shifts your perspective from what's going on in the water, to what's going on on the floor.
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Old 10-04-2013, 09:27 PM   #33
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Hello!

The DSB experiment is still running good, i have just done a major trimming of plants.

I am close to go filterless now, but i dont know what to use for water circulation, poowerhead or airpump.

Here is an picture after trimming:
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Old 10-04-2013, 09:52 PM   #34
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I really like this idea but how are you determining if the DSB is working as you want it too in this experiment?
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Old 10-05-2013, 03:36 AM   #35
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Nice! Can't wait to see the results of filterless.

btw, I also couldnt wait and started setting up mine so I'll be looking at your thread with interest! Subscribed
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Old 10-05-2013, 08:11 AM   #36
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I really like this idea but how are you determining if the DSB is working as you want it too in this experiment?
I really can't, dont have the calification to do that. But i have about 40 small fishes in this tank so i have some bioload. I am feeding the fishes two times a day and I never clean the substrate and it looks to mee that it have developed to a very healthy substrate, the plants are growing very good and and fishes darts happy around. I also almost never do waterchanges.

If the tank still continue to run good after removing the filter i only have to guess that the DSB have some function

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Old 10-14-2013, 06:57 PM   #37
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Hello!

This tank have gone filterless today, only running a air stone for water circulation.

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Old 10-14-2013, 07:07 PM   #38
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how deep is your DSB? I don't see why DSB wouldn't work for freshwater the same as it does for saltwater, but I think most people in the saltwater hobby are giving up on DSB's because they have a limited lifecycle and then have to be replaced or they'll end up leaching nitrates/phosphates back in to the tank that aren't good, and can/will crash the tank once the DSB fills full of gunk. The depth of the DSB and the stock would help estimate how long the DSB might last...

In a planted tank it might not be a bad thing... you'll have 'live sand' just like in saltwater - all that means is that bacteria lives in your sand, and bacteria doesn't care if the water is fresh or salt, it lives everywhere it can, the more surface area the better. The DSB just takes any detritus in the system and pushes it downwards to the bottom until the sand is completely full and then it explodes - in a planted tank maybe it wouldn't explode because the plant roots might eat up the detritus and plants like nitrates and phosphates a lot more than corals do =).

Really I think all of the planted tanks I've seen really have the DSB theory running in them - if you aren't taking your siphon and sticking it down deep in your substrate to pull all the detritus out then you basically have a DSB functioning even though you might not be running sand, or it might not be a deep bed... the concept is in function in planted tanks to put the nutrients in the substrate for the plants to eat rather than removing the nutrients with water changes/siphoning the substrate...
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Old 10-14-2013, 07:11 PM   #39
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on another note - you can leave your filter in and run it empty with no filter media so you still have good surface agitation.. that's how I run my reef tank, I only put filter media in to clean up anything that is stirred in the water column after I do water changes or blow off my rocks, then once its cleaned up / settled I take the media out and wash it then store it until the next time I stir it up...
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Old 10-14-2013, 07:15 PM   #40
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just thought of another thing - sorry for the multiple posts... I had ran my FW tank as I mentioned above with just the filter for surface agitation and put filter media in only for cleaning / polishing the water column then removing it and running the filter empty... everything ran fine, but when I changed my filter media it crashed my tank because all of the bacteria population was in my old substrate, so just keep that in mind, you might want to run filter floss for a while if you ever decide you want to go away from the DSB, or just replace a little of the DSB at a time so the bacteria can move to the new substrate.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:44 AM   #41
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how deep is your DSB? I don't see why DSB wouldn't work for freshwater the same as it does for saltwater, but I think most people in the saltwater hobby are giving up on DSB's because they have a limited lifecycle and then have to be replaced or they'll end up leaching nitrates/phosphates back in to the tank that aren't good, and can/will crash the tank once the DSB fills full of gunk. The depth of the DSB and the stock would help estimate how long the DSB might last...
In a FW planted tank, and I'd assume a SW tank with a tonne of Macroalgae and mangroves this wouldn't be a problem at all, like you said. The FW DSB concept is virtualy identical to the walstadt method, except that the bacteria and "soil" establish themselves over time in the form of broken down detritus, and that the DSB concept uses layers of decreasing oxygenation to break down waste rather than using mostly oxygenated, high concentration bacteria.

This pretty well demonstrates how the flow of things works.


I wouldn't say that most planted tanks operate on the DSB concept, actually I'd say most don't. I can see why you would think that, but most of the substrates that I've seen used aren't fine enough or deep enough to create that full anoxic region. Most 2-3" substrate beds do seem to create the anaerobic region, but most don't go anoxic.

This ^ is the reason people are scared of DSBs. If a region of the substrate goes anaerobic without an anoxic region below it it starts bubbling straight Hydrogen Sulfide. Most people that think they have a sufficiently deep DSB, actually only have a partial DSB, which has lead to catastrophic tank deaths, this is blamed on the DSB concept, and it's shunned by generations of tank-keeps.
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Old 10-15-2013, 02:21 PM   #42
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I have about 40 small fishes in this tank so i have some bioload.
I am feeding the fishes two times a day and I never clean the substrate
I think you are feeding your fish too much to go with out a filter. I feed mine every other day and I have a filter. I have to change water and vacumm the the substrate monthly or I loose a fish. The bottom dwelling fish, Corys, are especially sensitive to waste build up, nitrites, on the soil.
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Old 10-15-2013, 05:37 PM   #43
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Legot, the reason I would consider planted tanks to be running the DSB in theory is just the fact that you are relying on the substrate to intake the waste instead of vacuuming the waste out of the tank with water changes.

I wasn't getting as technical about anaerobic / anoxic, but I would think eventually you'd get enough detritus build up between the substrate that it could still create the anaerobic / anoxic layers once the detritus builds up in it enough and the substrate becomes "full". In the planted tank it may not due to the plants using up the nutrients as they break down in the substrate.

I guess that's why I thought its not good to disturb the substrate in a planted tank (more reason than just not disturbing roots) was due to the detritus build up in the substrate you could release unwanted crap out of the substrate (I guess really the only thing you'd be worried about here is if you had hydrogen sulfide build up, in the reef tank you're also worried about nitrates / phosphates that are stuck in the DSB being released in to the tank... not an issue in a planted tank since the plants probably use up as much or more nitrates/phosphates than you create from detritus...)
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:16 PM   #44
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Thanks for posting and showing interest in this subjeckt , i will take your inputs with me running this DSB experiment.

I am very excited to see how this will develop.

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Old 10-15-2013, 10:52 PM   #45
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I do not think there are many microbial benefits to a DSB, there's just no need to wastr the space ina FW aquarium with plants.

Plants are far superior to export than bacteria ina DSB.

DSB are useful for marine aquarist who wish to save $ on salt cost for water changes. But here again, the marine aquarist could use macro algae or mangroves/emergent species, seasgrasses, but most find that the macro algae do the best job. In those cases, the micro invertebrates and macroinvertebrates form a lot of close relationships not found in FW systems.

You can also use micro algae, search ATS, algae turf scrubbers. These are better suited to smaller NO3 and PO4 export and can handle more abuse and ranges of NO3/PO4 than macro algae can. But macro algae can export more volume of the ferts per unit area and per light PAR.

One way to test this is to remove all the plants and add KNO3 and see how much is lost over time.

Plant roots add carbon and O2 that will help some bacteria, but the denitrifiers should be okay without that source.

You'd need to do this a few times, say 4-5 weeks. So this is a better method for a FISH only tank, not one with plants. You start havign a very hard time figuring out who is doing what if you start removing NO3 via bacteria, water changes, plants, macro algae, mangroves, clean filters etc etc.
A simple system works best and then you can later add treatments on top of that.
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