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Old 08-28-2013, 04:52 PM   #46
ThatGuyWithTheFish
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Eh if China disn't have such terrible copyright laws we wouldn't have to deal with who's the original and who's the copycat.
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:57 PM   #47
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Eh if China disn't have such terrible copyright laws we wouldn't have to deal with who's the original and who's the copycat.
It's not just China. But if you think about it also...if everything could be copyrighted or patented, then every manufacturer could jack prices way up just because they want to. Pluses and minuses. But reguardless there is no way to patent these. And copyright...all you can do is copyright the name or brand.
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:46 PM   #48
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At the end of the day, the product in question has to speak for itself and the price is a consequence of that. Whether or not you agree with the price or will pay for the product at that price point is another question entirely. Obviously there are a lot of people that think ADA lily pipes are overpriced; I would actually agree with that.

That said, I've used a lot of lily pipe brands and I can tell that when it comes to the inlet pipe, there is an enormous range of prices and quality. A quality inlet pipe will have (1) thick glass, (2) well cut out slits and (3) a large quantity of slits. (Too few slits will hinder the intake of water, esp if, say, a random leaf should block some of the slits, reducing the canister filter flow.) Hopefully, it will also have these characteristics at a decent price.

In my experience, the only brands that seem to have all three of these characteristics are Cal Aqua Labs, ADA and Borneo Wild. These are the most expensive brands (Cal Aqua Labs being the best value, IME) but are worth the money. I have an ADA inlet pipe in the 13 mm size and so i hope the 17 mm size is of similar quality. I have only seen pictures of the Borneo Wild ones (it will be the next brand i get, once i save up enough... or break one, though i have only broken an inlet powerman lily pipe, i should say). I've tried 17 mm PowerMan (thin glass, poor slits, few slits), Aquatic Magic (thick glass, good slits, few slits), Gush (thick glass, poor slits, more slits than aquatic magic, but not enough IMO), Cal Aqua Labs (thick glass, good slits, many slits). Aquatic magic inlet lily pipes have the slits on the inside (facing the glass side) but i'm not sure that makes a difference or not...

I tried to look at the website with the VIV inlet pipes and cannot get a good look at the product so I would like to see a larger picture of the actual product before I personally would commit to purchasing one. Once we have some actual pictures of the product and people try them out, then we should make our judgement of the product and see if we consider it a good value or not.
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:55 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by JeffyFunk View Post
I tried to look at the website with the VIV inlet pipes and cannot get a good look at the product so I would like to see a larger picture of the actual product before I personally would commit to purchasing one. Once we have some actual pictures of the product and people try them out, then we should make our judgement of the product and see if we consider it a good value or not.
http://www.viv.com.hk/newsShow.php?bigtype=1&id=17

They have some good pictures here where they did a comparison between VIV and ADA.
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Old 08-28-2013, 06:24 PM   #50
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http://www.viv.com.hk/newsShow.php?bigtype=1&id=17

They have some good pictures here where they did a comparison between VIV and ADA.
Thank you for the link. I obviously missed that when i was looking at the website - my bad. That said, the last set of pictures is the one I find most interesting. It seems like VIV is comparing the inlet pipe to the Aquatic Magic inlet pipe (which has the inward facing slits, even...). Both inlet pipes have well cut slits but not a lot of them. What I really want to see is a comparison the ADA 17mm inlet lily pipe(s) and the 17 mm VIV inlet lily pipes. They show comparisons of the VIV inlet lily pipes to the Do Aqua brand ones, but not the ADA one - at least in the area of slit inlets (quality and quantity). My experience has simply been that the quality and quantity of the inlet openings is the most important factor in how well they perform. The other qualities like craftsmanship, etc are important as well, but not as important as the inlet openings.
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:26 PM   #51
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First shipment of VIV Pipes. This is a full seven foot tall crate full. Start bugging you LFS. Comes in a week or two from now.


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Old 08-28-2013, 09:34 PM   #52
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Some pics.

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Old 08-28-2013, 10:20 PM   #53
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What you wrote about ADA's lily pipes looks a lot like what they put in their website, which to me sounds like marketing gibberish. You can't find a single optimal shape for a lily pipe for a planted tank because it doesn't exist.
Maybe, but you were not there in the design room or with them when they were conceptualizing it. Neither was I, but let's not loose focus, there must be a reason why that is the most popular shape, and why other companies mimic it. I disagree, when working with a specific layout you can find a pretty close shape to optimal, the Lily is basically a generalized shape that most of the time you can't go wrong with picking. Only when you want something specialized do you look into different shapes.

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How your plants are placed, your tank dimensions, your substrate depth, your substrate slope, your flow rate, how deeply rooted your carpeting plant is, and dozen other factors affects the "optimal" angle of the downspout and the shape.
That is true, but that is also why it comes in different sizes like P-1, or P-3, different sizes for different tanks, you pick the size that suits your setup best, which is pretty common sense, much like choosing the right amount of substrate or filter size.

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There's a reason reef tanks (where flow is arguably even more important) almost all have adjustable nozzles for the output. As for aeration, can you not do the same thing with any output pipe?
Well in the first place, Reef tanks don't rely on any one return pipe for flow, they use specialized pumps like wavemakers or a closed loop with multiple outflows. Also their goals are different than ours, they are trying to mimic the dynamic wave patterns found in the ocean and reef, they try to achieve random flow patterns for the health of the corals. Compared to where most plants are found the conditions are way more mild regarding flow. Apples to oranges really. About the aeration, yes but if you are talking about a typical output like on an Eheim filter, it can't really be adjusted. Have you ever used any type of Lily Pipe before? I ask because then you would know that you can adjust how much surface breakage you want. It can be adjusted to very little to quite a bit.

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I'm not saying they just threw together a bunch of random numbers, but their angles and outlet shapes are hardly proprietary and they know it, or else they would have slapped a patent on it, being as secretive as they are.
I don't really think they are being secretive, in all of their magazines, videos and other material, they always explain how and why they designed their products a certain way. To label that secretive or a marketing thing is not really an accurate view, more of an uninformed one.
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Old 08-29-2013, 02:57 AM   #54
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How much is the Spin?
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:11 AM   #55
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Neither was I, but let's not loose focus, there must be a reason why that is the most popular shape, and why other companies mimic it.
Except...noone is has the exact same angles and outlet shapes as ADA except for VIV. Aquaticmagic, Cal Aqua, Borneowild, etc, all have different shapes and designs. As for VIV, they clearly stated they are trying to compete with ADA on price, while staying as close to ADA quality and spec as possible (if not surpassing them, per their website). Why would they change the design if they are trying to compete on a cost basis?

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Originally Posted by Green_Flash View Post
I disagree, when working with a specific layout you can find a pretty close shape to optimal, the Lily is basically a generalized shape that most of the time you can't go wrong with picking. Only when you want something specialized do you look into different shapes.
I highlighted the key point. And aren't you just proving my point? If "the lily is basically a generalized shape that most of the time you can't go wrong with picking", what makes ADA lilies so special compared to Aquaticmagic or Cal Aqua's lily shape? How do you optimize a generalized shape?

As for flow characteristics, a single rock in an iwagumi setup will completely throw off your flow patterns depending on placement. This isn't a stream. Water doesn't just flow around it and keep going in the same direction.

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Originally Posted by Green_Flash View Post
That is true, but that is also why it comes in different sizes like P-1, or P-3, different sizes for different tanks, you pick the size that suits your setup best, which is pretty common sense, much like choosing the right amount of substrate or filter size.
Without having all of the various sizes in front of me to measure the outlet angle, I don't have a complete argument against this. If you have some different sizes, I'd actually be really interested to know if the angle changes between the different sizes or if it's just the opening size. I will point out:

http://www.adana.co.jp/en/products/na_filter/lily_pipe/

P2 and P4 lily pipes have the same recommended filter flow rate and the same input diameter. Yet the one with a bigger opening (meaning gentler flow) is recommended for a bigger tank (almost twice as long). That seems odd to me.

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Originally Posted by Green_Flash View Post
Well in the first place, Reef tanks don't rely on any one return pipe for flow, they use specialized pumps like wavemakers or a closed loop with multiple outflows
Where did I say reef tanks rely on a single return pipe for flow? Pretty sure most of those pumps and wavemakers have adjustable nozzles for their output like I said. My point was that the reason they have adjustable nozzles is because rocks and corals greatly affect how water flows around the tank and how detritus collects. Thus, there's no "optimal" setup, and the manufacturer makes it adjustable for that reason. The same applies to planted tanks with regards to plant, driftwood, and rock placement. To a lesser degree (like I said) for sure, but it's certainly not apples and oranges. Maybe clementines to oranges Even distribution of flow in a planted tank ensures even CO2 distribution and that debris does not collect.

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About the aeration, yes but if you are talking about a typical output like on an Eheim filter, it can't really be adjusted. Have you ever used any type of Lily Pipe before? I ask because then you would know that you can adjust how much surface breakage you want. It can be adjusted to very little to quite a bit.
I've used Aqmagic pipes in the past before, but stopped because I am far too clumsy when it comes to cleaning them. I don't see your point with this though. I can do the same thing on a spray bar. There's nothing magical about the shape of the lily pipe. It creates agitation if you want it to but there's a million ways to do that with an outlet.

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Originally Posted by Green_Flash View Post
I don't really think they are being secretive, in all of their magazines, videos and other material, they always explain how and why they designed their products a certain way. To label that secretive or a marketing thing is not really an accurate view, more of an uninformed one.
This is fair, I went a little overboard with my rant, my apologies. My point on their angles and outlets shapes not being proprietary still stands though. I will say though, that Tom Barr is fairly outspoken about how Amano always dodges his scientific questions

Ok, I'm really out this time. Had to clarify some points and retract some of my more ranty stuff, heh.
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Old 08-30-2013, 08:19 AM   #56
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Last comment I promise.

Yes, sometimes the exact shape is not copied. But that is not the end of the story, we have to explore the question why is that so? And the answer is most likely they either lack the knowledge on how to manufacture it that exact way or they are trying to make it different to avoid copyright or whatever laws. Also I was never talking about why VIV would change the design. My original statement was along the line of this reasoning: ADA made a great design. Other companies see the success and imitate. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. Those companies hence by copying even the style, poorly done or not, are basically acknowledging the superiority of the ADA design, are they not?

Without getting too complicated, what prompted this discussion is you dismissed the design of the Lily pipe by ADA, they did nothing special. What I have been trying to explain to you is that by defending the brand(s) that copied it, you are basically agreeing with me that ADA did put R&D into it.

In conclusion we support the companies we want. I however like to take the entire body of work into consideration when making a decision. Because simply ADA is a company that turns out new and great products for planted tanks, yet whenever they are discussed it often turns into a negative debate with a good deal of people coming out of the wood work to bash their products, company in one way or another. Where this originates from you can draw your own conclusions. Sort of reminds you of a certain computer company. *cough* . Lastly Amano and ADA are all about science. They recently released a lab report about their products in certain tests. The very principle of a substrate system is based on what you find in nature, topsoil, bacteria etc. Being called the Nature Aquarium style is proof of that, Amano has always said his inspiration is from Nature. And science is all about the study of the natural environment around us and how it works.

Last edited by Green_Flash; 08-30-2013 at 08:34 AM.. Reason: ...
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:07 PM   #57
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Old 08-31-2013, 09:22 AM   #58
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how do i order?
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:04 AM   #59
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Im interested in a 9 or 10 mm outflow. Jet maybe or lily. Got pics and prices?
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Old 09-03-2013, 06:24 PM   #60
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how do i order?
I will update this thread with information on what retail stores order these. Some go to distributors and I wont be able to track specific stores but I will have at least some that I can point you towards.
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