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Old 08-01-2013, 03:25 AM   #76
pandacory
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you could take the backup drain and put it at an angle (opening facing up, with bottom of the opening just below the surface at normal operating level).

That way it will let the trickle happen at the normal operating level, then if it gets to the top of the emergency drain, a siphon will form and should drain quicker than gravity.

I have done this a few times on hydro grow beds that only had 2 holes. works fine and doesn't make much noise at my pipe size since the change from trickle to siphon and back again is relatively gradual.

Just don't glue the 90 to the bulkhead so you can play with the angle once the rest of the plumbing is connected and the tank is running.
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:32 PM   #77
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hahaha, yeah, don't worry. I won't be gluing those elbows any time soon.
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Old 08-03-2013, 02:21 AM   #78
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Phil, Jason did his out of acrylic of some sort - IIRC that can be chemically bonded. I personally would prefer that to glass/silicone...although, really, if you think about it an external overflow made of glass/silicone is just a small aquarium...same manufacturing principles. Just be sure to use nice thick glass that's cleaned/prepared properly.

About the monitoring...will you be doing any sort of automated monitoring? Or remote monitoring? Drool...I would love to be at work and have a mini-site or app that told me current water conditions... haha so cool.
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Old 08-03-2013, 02:49 AM   #79
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Oh, btw, Phil - if you send me some dimensions, I can do some prelim sketchup for ya, something to get you started.
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Old 08-03-2013, 04:22 AM   #80
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Phil, you will want to use both the over flow pipes, not just try and use one and an emergency.

To do this, you will NOT use ball valves, rather, you will simple adjust the standpipe height so that 95-99% of the water goes down siphon no#1.

Then adjust the standpipe of no#2 so that only a tiny trickle goes down, but, if the 1# clogs or backs up for any reason, you still have 95% of siphon no# available for emergencies.

Not much will clog a 1.5" siphon.

Sump materials: Sponge blocks can be had from Swisstropical.com

Get the 4" thick 20 ppi size, this is plenty.
If you can use an inflow area for the degassing area that's sealed, then goes down under a weir, then back up, then you can us ethe filter socks, I'd use 100 micron 7" socks, say 2-4 of them.

Then the sponge, then the CO2/heater, filter return pump.

CO2: likely a Rio 2500 + their needle wheel and a larger Clear 4 x 10 or 4 x 20 filter cartridge housing to catch the mist, then simply have a loop in the sump filter area with the Rio upstream from the out flow(place this next to the return pump)

CO2: Dual stage regs, a 20 lb tank(buy 2-3).

Measurign CO2 rates: Use the inverted ml flask method. Measure mls of gas/min, or per 5 or 10 minutes, then you have a consistent FAR MORE accurate method for larger high volume CO2 dosing rates. Unlike Bubbles per second, this is a standardized method. I think I'm the only bone head to even suggest it in the hobby. But it works really well.

I needed to switch a regulator and CO2 system, so I did not want to have to tweak and toy with the new much, so this was a simple solution.

Relative pH drop is another.

The pH drop was exact when I used the gas mls per 5 minute method as the old reg that produced a wonderful growth rate. No significant difference.

I'd go with 3 and 5 mm.

You can also add a steel stainless wire mesh , a U shaped piece over the overflows to keep Amano shrimp and most of the smaller shrimp fry and smaller fish out and you can simply pull it off and knock the leaves off to clean it.

Ebay or a few folks here sell the wire mesh.
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Old 08-03-2013, 12:55 PM   #81
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Tom,

I've already got my plumbing planned out and will be going with the design as previously mentioned. One 1.5" will be the main siphon with the second, upturned, elbow acting as both the trickle and emergency outlet. 1.5" is overkill for the amount of flow this tank will have so I'm confident the design will handle anything that comes, as is. I will be using ball valves as well because I like the control and modularity that comes with using True Unions when hard plumbing a filter.

As I said previously, I've been using sealed sumps since 2001 and have been tweaking designs over that period. I've come up with what I believe is an ideal sump design for large planted aquaria and will be using that. The only things I've been lacking are access to suitable acrylic shops and the money to implement my design. Number 1's taken care of and I'm just waiting on quotes from a number of quality manufacturers.

Pictures and a thorough discussion of the design and discussion of tests I have planned will come once I have the sump in-hand.

I agree with you on the mL/minute method for CO2 measurement. Having lost weeks of my life staring at bubbles rising in Guelph Permeameters while quantifying hydraulic conductivity I fully appreciate the value of displacement over time quantification methods; especially when there's a lot of gas being thrown at a system.

I think bubbles/second backed up with pH probe measurements is a fine method for systems 90g or smaller. It's a well documented method that a lot of people are comfortable with. As scientists we both want something more discrete and scientifically sound/accepted though, don't we? Personally, I'm not satisfied unless I can get a good set of repetitions and a tight standard deviation.
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Old 08-03-2013, 01:10 PM   #82
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crazymittens,

Thanks for the offer, but I'd prefer to take care of this myself. I will say this though, the dimensions I'm hoping to go with are 60"x30"x18". Cost will be a factor. I'd prefer 24" high, but the stand I'll be using won't allow for much overhead clearance at that height. That's a really big sump and is probably overkill, in fact, I know it is; but I want a filter that has a lot of room for media and will give me complete customizability. The design includes a large reservoir section as well.

I prefer a very large reservoir section for a couple reasons. 1: that much water in reserve will allow me to not worry about running dry while away for extended periods. I don't trust ATOs at all. 2: a large reservoir is a perfect area for growing out plants and breeding shrimp. With a tank of this size a single stem or small bunch of stems will get lost in the masses. I want to be able to see clearly how a given species will do in the system before messing around with the display. Also, I want to be able to switch out groups of at least 15 stems or a single established and growing specimen plant when playing with aquascaping.

Regarding overflows and such, I may play around with making an internal glass overflow rather than chance problems with an external one. I'm confident in my PVC working abilities but less so with my glass aquarium making skills.

External control and monitoring may come in the future, we'll see. That's an area I don't really feel the need to delve except as a "wouldn't it be cool?" feature. If a manufacturer wants to give me the hardware to do it then I'll go that route. Until such a time there are many other things I want to spend my money on. Automation's fun and is a cool goal to work for, I'll give you that. I will eventually be using dosing pumps for supplement addition, for sure. Dosing liters of supplements every day or every other day will soon get tiring and I want the stability of daily dosing a set amount for this system. Having stable inputs of light, CO2, and ferts will allow me to do some studies and comparisons I've wanted to do for years.

Last edited by Phil Edwards; 08-03-2013 at 01:32 PM.. Reason: responding to a missed post
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Old 08-03-2013, 05:59 PM   #83
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well after reading this whole thing i can certainly say a few things.
im looking forward to photos.
cant wait for things to come together.
oh did i mention im looking forward to photos?

subscribed, this should be amazing!
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Old 08-03-2013, 06:14 PM   #84
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Can't wait to see it all come together, either!!!

AWESOME TANK SIZE!!! You are a very luck man!!!

Subscribed 4 SURE!!!

Best of Luck to Ya!!!
Drew
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Old 08-03-2013, 06:46 PM   #85
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Phil, are you able to share the sump design premises? (That's what...100G sump? Hahaha awesome...)

I think the fabrication process would be rendered pretty bulletproof with quality materials, proper surface preparation, and a jig/clamps. I might add some triangular gussets to vertically support an external overflow box.

Now to mosey back a page and really read Tom's post...
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Old 08-03-2013, 06:49 PM   #86
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Thanks guys, I appreciate it. I promise I'll get plants growing in this tank just as soon as I can. The planned hardware setup may take a bit longer to come to fruition though.

Photo documentation will be profuse. Threads aren't worth anything without pics, eh?
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Old 08-03-2013, 07:33 PM   #87
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crazymittens,

The main premise of the sump is to have the entire filtration section be sealable and to maintain laminar flow through the whole thing. Slow and laminar flow enables better biological and chemical filtration. Water from the tank will be entering from the side rather than the top and will move through the media chambers in a sinusoidal fashion rather than a purely vertical one. Because the outlets are on the side and the sump's made from acrylic, it's possible to create a sealed media section with a brace around the edges with screws every so often. Add a little foam or weather stripping and you've got a screw-down lid that is totally sealed from the outside. Pressure regulation will be accomplished by drilling a hole into the chamber with a gas fitting and a piece of semi-rigid tubing going from there into the reservoir near the CO2 chopper-pump to get sucked up and dissolved back into the water.

The goal of the design (particularly for the biomedia chamber) is for water to enter from the bottom and be forced upward through the whole column before gently flowing out the top into the next chamber, or vice versa. This will be accomplished by wide notches cut into either the bottom or top of each baffle. Envision a wide notch in the top of a rubbermaid box with water entering at the bottom. Although there's a current at the very bottom, the tendency is for the whole column of water to move upwards and overflow, rather than a stream to move through and jettison out. Maximizing evenness of flow and contact time with media is the name of the game.

Each chamber will be dedicated to one type of media, such as Poret Foam or bioballs. There will be no stacking or mixing of media. This will allow for easy exhange of media if required.

I'm working on a (rough) Sketchup diagram now. There are other design features that will be incorporated into the final product that I might not be able to get into a rendering well enough.


Before anyone chimes in to say "You don't need to do all that BS! My way is the best or only way!" let me say this. I want this sump to be able to handle anything I care to throw at it and I have certain preferences that I'm going to indulge with this project. Yeah, I could just throw a trashcan full of plastic floss into an aquarium; duct tape and/or silicone the hell out of it and call it a filter. I've done that and it worked well enough at the time. These days I want a real bang-up, all the bells and whistles, sump that will be able to do everything I could ask of it as far as keeping an aquarium is concerned.

I want to be able to look at it and think "OMFG that's one badass piece of hardware!".
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Old 08-03-2013, 09:50 PM   #88
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hi phil,

curious as to your thoughts on wet/dry and refugiums as types of filters to include in your sump.

i've seen a few references to refugiums as great filters (not necessarily to grow additional plants or hide extra critters-which everyone quickly points out). kinda wondering if its worth the space to you.

i like your ideas on specific chambers/media types especially for cleaning purposes.

thanks,
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:57 PM   #89
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Well this is an interesting development...I've read a lot on how oxygenation is very important (well, beneficial) for the bacteria.

So going on the theme of 'sump that will be able to do everything you ask of it'...you're saying that maximizing water contact with media is more beneficial than turbulent, oxygenated flow via a drip system? i.e. provides significantly better biofiltration? Is this a principle that will only work on a very long sump like you are specifying?

Hm...guess I'll have to wait for your sketchups!


trailsnale, I think he mentioned that a refugium will be part of this.
Quote:
2: a large reservoir is a perfect area for growing out plants and breeding shrimp. With a tank of this size a single stem or small bunch of stems will get lost in the masses. I want to be able to see clearly how a given species will do in the system before messing around with the display. Also, I want to be able to switch out groups of at least 15 stems or a single established and growing specimen plant when playing with aquascaping.
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:51 AM   #90
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my miss crazymittens... thanks!.

still curious as to the filtering benefits of a refuge or is it merely a duplication of the 'tank?' seems one can always load up on more bio filtration within the confines of a sump. wonder if an alternative filtration adds to the overall mix.

crazymittens, agreed w/ you, looking forward to the build!!!

thanks,





Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymittens View Post
Well this is an interesting development...I've read a lot on how oxygenation is very important (well, beneficial) for the bacteria.

So going on the theme of 'sump that will be able to do everything you ask of it'...you're saying that maximizing water contact with media is more beneficial than turbulent, oxygenated flow via a drip system? i.e. provides significantly better biofiltration? Is this a principle that will only work on a very long sump like you are specifying?

Hm...guess I'll have to wait for your sketchups!


trailsnale, I think he mentioned that a refugium will be part of this.

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