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Old 07-04-2013, 06:23 PM   #16
cro117
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ya, im thinking i might have to use a mattenfilter, but don't they collect a lot of detritus and junk? oddly enough i actually want uneaten food and particles to settle on the bottom of the tank to fuel the denitrification process. if the waste settles in the gravel it will help feed plants and anaerobic bacteria, where if it settles somewhere else, it will just build up creating an ammonia factory, like an undergravel.

i suppose i can always overfeed a little and clean the pad out more often so there's enough waste in the tank. or maybe if the flow is low enough they won't pic up too much. how are yours? do you have to clean them often?

oh, and a project update- turns out i am really, really, bad with woodworking. so i'm still stuck on the whole canopy thing. i'm thinking about arm or hanging lights oh the wall behind the tank, but i was hoping to insulate the canopy to reduce heat loss, maybe that wouldn't even help much.

does anyone know a place online that has dirt cheap canopies?
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Old 07-05-2013, 01:05 PM   #17
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I am by no means a discus expert, so others chime in on this...I think the hormones that discus release into the water is what can also cause them to stunt...that is one of the main reasons why folks do daily water changes with juvenile discus, amongst keeping nitrates down...
Interesting. Had no idea! Thanks.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:36 PM   #18
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Thanks for the invitation to look at your proposal and comment. I've researched certain of these aspects exhaustively, but I still have more questions than answers myself! According to my findings, my humble opinions, and some of my suspicions as well -

I suspect the water chemistry is actually more complex than we usually get into discussing or fully understand in the hobby. Looking just at nitrates is overly simplistic perhaps, and I suspect there are a great many more complex organic molecules present, and some of which can take time to properly break down, oxidize, reduce, etc. I'm not sure however if bacteria or plants are better at dealing with these. And it depends upon how natural of a planted tank you might want to go.

Personally, I'd hedge your bets and try a multi-faceted approach. But still, to maintain water quality, it shouldn't hurt to use ozone and/or activated carbon. Those will, respectively, chemically reduce the organic compounds to a form which plants can absorb, or just remove them, instead of having those complex molecules building up in the tank.

I tried to read into it, and as a result don't believe in discus growth-inhibiting hormones. Nitrates, and potentially other parameters I believe can inhibit growth though.

For a deep sand bed, I'd suggest sand with a little larger grain than play sand as you don't want to stop all water infiltration. Depending on if you want it light or dark, I'd suggest pool filter sand or like a relatively fine Black Diamond blasting sand.

If you have burrowing fish like rays, I would separate the soil base from the capping sand with large sheets of rigid plastic knitting mesh, with say a half-inch of sand underneath that. The plants will be able to root through it, and won't get uprooted as easily. Your plant roots should help keep the substrate healthy. Malaysian trumpet snails are supposed to help with that as well. And I thought of even trying to introduce live blackworms, similar to how reefer's depend upon worms in their substrate to keep it aerated and healthy, though I'm a bit nervous about that. (Whether keeping a ray negates all that, I have no idea).

I don't know anything about kitty litter, but would personally prefer a mineralized topsoil base, supplemented with granular dolomite, potash, powdered clay, etc. The granular dolomite should help keep the substrate from acidifying over time, which would otherwise halt bacterial activity.

Basically, to have healthy plants, a healthy tank, healthy fish, and little algae, you want to make sure the plants have as much in terms of nutrients as they can get, while the algae does not. Therefore, if you keep the nutrients under the sand, where the plants can reach them via their roots, but where it stays mostly out of the water column, then you'll have good healthy plants, little algae, and won't need to worry really about dosing nutrients in the water column daily.

I suspect that even to keep healthy softwater fish, you want an appropriate blend of minerals in the water, (just like a reef tank), but only in much smaller amounts, including calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity. If you're not doing regular water changes, then your hardness could get depleted as organic acids produced in the system neutralizes it, causing your ph to drop which could kill your biofilter, aka old tank syndrome. I don't know what your tapwater is like, but mine is rubbish and I wouldn't want to use it directly. You could use RODI water and then remineralize it with discus buffer or similar products. That could be in your water-change water or perhaps even your top-off water, but you would want to test and monitor those parameters. You could have a bag of crushed coral and dolomite in the sump or filter, which might melt to remineralize the tank as necessary and gradually. Or, it might get covered in bacterial bio-film, and quickly stop releasing minerals. Either way, you should keep an eye on your hardness and TDS, to make sure it doesn't get out of hand.

I'd want to do DIY LED lighting myself, but if cost is paramount, then I believe that a few rows of florescent lights might be your cheapest option in terms of initial upfront price. You can also buy LED tile fixtures relatively cheap from China on auction sites nowadays, which do the job. I'm thinking that natural white LED's which are around 5000K give the best looking light and fullest spectrum for a planted tank. And if you can get a supplemental RGB strip light, then the three of those specific colours will supplement some of the gaps in the spectrum of white LED's, (such as the green specifically), while contributing a white-ish light themselves. I haven't done it yet myself, but I believe the combination should give the most natural full-spectrum look, and if the RGB strips are tune-able and dimmable, then all the better.

I haven't thought at all about what sort of lumen you'd want to try to achieve, but I think with what you're talking about, you would be underpowered. You can have glass/plastic closing off the top of your tank, with the lighting just on or above that, which is what I have in my reef tank as well. Four LED tile fixtures as necessary for an 8' tank aren't going to be cheap regardless though.

To maintain ecological balance, you may want to look at it as having to have your light intensity and plant growth at least equal to the metabolic output of your livestock. For that reason, I wanted to have relatively intense lighting (but adjustable), and then have fast-growing floating plants. They'd shade the tank, mop up any nutrients in the water, and then I could net out half of them each week to serve as a nutrient export mechanism. If you have a sump you could do the same thing there, with different types of plants as well. Floating plants or emergent plants in sump, which can consume atmospheric CO2 would really help scrub your water in a non-limiting manner, if your tank doesn't have pressurized CO2.

I'd do a dry start as well, to get the plants rooted and give them the upper hand over algae before you submerge them. You may then not need many algae eaters with sufficient plant growth. I like nerite snails, and I think apple snails are good as well, as they can consume and therefore recycle the cellulose in dead plant leaves. Plecos get mixed reviews, but I think bristlenose might be most suitable for you.

I guess for heating you'll likely need at least two 300 watt heaters, with the redundancy there for safety.

If you have a large enough mattenfilter area, such as using it to separate sump compartments, then it shouldn't clog too quickly, or at most should be designed to flow over the top if clogged and needing to be rinsed.

I would perhaps suggest using more water current than most discus keepers use, so long as the fish aren't struggling too much. That should help keep the tank, the plants, and the fish healthy. Depending upon your approach that topic is a little tricky, as fish and bacteria do best in well oxygenated water, but that might push some of the co2 out as well then. A powerhead in the tank causing water ripples across the surface would achieve the necessary oxygenation. If you have sufficiently intense lighting, then the plants should produce oxygen, though you don't want the levels swinging either from day to night. If you're using a sump in the stand, then you could light the fuge/sump on a reverse cycle? Some might suggest keeping the tank tightly covered to keep in CO2. I'm rather split on this issue, as I suspect poor oxygenation can help pathogens thrive.

With discus, perhaps stay away from some of the deeply inbred domestic strains, and find wild strains which are a few F-generations into being tank-bred. Or a wild/domestic cross perhaps.

There are threads in various places giving lists of plants that thrive in the mid-80's temperatures in discus tanks. Have a search for those.

If I recall correctly, 4 discus is too few, and for hierarchy/aggression issues, you're better sticking with at least six.

I hear beefheart is too messy though for a planted tank, as too much of it is left in the water for even fast-growing plants to keep up with. And you might not be able to feed as much as some discus enthusiasts do. While if you were doing multiple daily water changes then it wouldn't be detrimental to constantly overfeed your tank in order to max out their growth.

And do first read Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, but Diana Walstad. But take it with a grain of salt and with the view that you can hybridize that approach still, IMHO.

Best of luck, but approach it cautiously and thoughtfully!
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rballi View Post
I am by no means a discus expert, so others chime in on this...I think the hormones that discus release into the water is what can also cause them to stunt...that is one of the main reasons why folks do daily water changes with juvenile discus, amongst keeping nitrates down...
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Originally Posted by MyMonkey View Post
Interesting. Had no idea! Thanks.
its not true.. never proven.. jack wattley mentioned something similar to this.. and it has morphed over time.. but that is not true.. lack of water changes is the main reason.. genetics.. also.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:42 PM   #20
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i was just thinking this thread would be something MXX would like. and here he was
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:47 AM   #21
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i got the idea to post an ecosystem thread from reading a post from mxx, lol.

as far as the mineral balances i've pretty much been perfecting small scale testing for over 10 years now. all of my tanks are made like this, weather breeding units or quarantine. i just have never really had big tanks before, so i never had big fish.

discus behavior will be new to me, i've only observed juveniles in a pet store before, so i'll shoot for 3 pairs then. i'll start off with like 8 and find a home for those that don't pair, or hell, as long as they wouldn't bother the others i could just hang onto them too.

the beefheart thing doesn't really worry me as i overfeed the tanks anyway. basically it's like feeding the plants with fish food, and the fish are welcome to take what they like. so with a tank that size i'll probably be feeding it quite a bit. that i'll have to see when it's all setup and running.

as to my water, its actually higher in everything then i'd like. 100-150 tds at times, 7.8 ph. over time though without water changes the tds will actually climb rather then drop do to top-offs with tap water, but snail shells will deteriorate, probably do to some imbalance or depleted element. so i do replenishment water changes a few times a year. i pretty much use snails as my canaries. the whole old tank syndrome thing has never been an isue for me in the past with low bioloads. nitrification produces H+ ions as a bi-product, which is acid, but it only gets to be a problem if the bioload is high enough. if in low numbers it should just be taken care of the bicarbonates.

i never get diatomacious algaes, never need algae eaters, which is odd considering the sand i use, but i do sometimes struggle with a little hair algae. it's more of an annoyance then a problem, but i'm going to be changing a few things from my usual methods in this tank, so i'm really hoping i don't end up supporting the hair algae more. i think it's because i usualy use pretty poor lighting, which is what i might end up with this tank too, so who knows. i was looking at the 5000k too, in fact i bought some already, but didn't really like the look. 5000k don't really do much for bringing out the blues and greens of fish, so i figured i'd go with 6500k and a few incandescent to add a little red lighting for the plants, like they used to do it back in the day. the plan was bathroom vanity lights like 90% of all residential bathrooms have above the sink area. it should be 4-6 fixtures with 3x sockets a piece, so i can do some variety, with all those sockets, but mainly i was just planing on using the 4-6 bulbs my friend uses on his reef.

i still hate the idea of heaters, lol. i've heard far too many horror stories, and experienced a few myself. except when it's a 10g or 20g its not a huge deal.

my first tank was a 30g that i made every starter mistake possible. before a water change i removed my heater as suggested in a book- good idea. i didn't unplug the heater- bad idea. i picked it up off my vinyl floor where it was starting a fire- good idea. i burnt my hand and dropped it into the tank where it exploded- bad idea. somehow all the fish actually survived and we never spoke about the incident again.

i'm thinking i'll have to go with a few 300w titanium heaters with an external temp controller, but that will probably stretch my budget a little. or as a plan B, just get angels and forget the heating. the house is warm enough for angels to live and breed just fine.

i really like your idea of a mesh layer separating the gravel, and now feel flabergasted that the idea never crossed my mind. i can do a peat clay (kitty litter) mix at the bottom, separated by a mesh with sand on top. that way if a ray does did a bit too deeply he wont go lower then the sand layer. i just need to decide if i want to go with big mesh allowing me to pull plants later down the road without the roots pulling out the mesh with it, or if i want to go with something finer to insure that the clay chips never dig their way up to the surface like my fluorite always has in the past.

i can't wait to actually get started, but ideas and incites like those are why posting a thread ahead of time pays off i guess. thank you for taking a look and offering detailed advice. i look forward to seeing how your build looks when finished.
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:54 AM   #22
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something kind of off topic from ecosystem builds and all, but didn't want to start a new thread for something this small. i got a 3d background at a discount because it was damaged and i was wondering if anyone had any insights as to touchups. from my reading i have only found krylon fusion spray paint. so i was thinking of spraying it into a cup and using a brush.

has anyone tried this or worked with this product? does anyone know of a better way to do touch up. i'd just need a bit of grey, maybe greyish green, and a bit of black to dab over it to blend. i don't want to spray the whole thing though, or coat with something that might make the finish in the touchup area look odd.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:25 AM   #23
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Well do be careful trying what I was considering, for I haven't tested it myself!!!

And yes, Warlock, I got a message from the OP directing me to his thread, so thanks for thinking of me!

To summarize, there are a few potential pitfalls and things to be concerned about in terms of water quality.

- Mineral and trace element balance
- Acidification
- TDS buildup
- Organics buildup
- Nitrogen buildup
-Dirt buildup
-Oxygenation
-CO2

For nutrient export I would be relying on culling fast growing plants. For oxygenation, decent flow. As the system secondary to the plants for organics and other substances, I would rely on ozone and carbon. For dirt, you could use an Eheim vacuum to keep things looking tidy. For algae control, use plant growth with an enriched substrate. And I suspect the bacteria in a decent biofilter help to complete the cycle and process organic compounds into a form which plants can utilize, which the ozone would help achieve as well.

The messier the food you use (such as beefheart), and the more of it you feed, the greater the amount of plant growth and biofiltration capacity you will however require. And you need to make sure you get the right proportion of plant growth to your bioload, while erring on the side of excess plants.

Your biofiltration bacteria will consume oxygen, and there will naturally only be a limited supply of CO2 for your plants. So if you're doing low-tech, then your plant growth without dosing CO2, then your plants might not be able to absorb and keep up with the production of nutrients from our fish, and produce oxygen either. So getting the carbon dioxide and oxygen balance right is important, though much less so if you can rely for instance on using emergent plants in your sump.

Reefers use 4-5 inches of sand for their DSB's, but that is with sand which is coarser. Playsand and a soil underlay will have less water percolating through, so it might be advisable to stay in the 3-4" range of depth instead, unless you can get sand the grain size of pool filter sand.

To maintain mineral balance/trace element levels and TDS levels appropriately, I had in any case decided I should plan to set up a reservoir with a Kati-Ani DI filter to which via an overflow I could periodically divert tank water to be deionized and then remineralized with a supplement. So that's the equivalent of doing water changes, except that I'd be using tank water so my DI resin might last longer than it would with my tank water. But I would be doing this to maintain mineral and trace levels, (as reefers do), not to control nitrates, and not every day or week.You also never really know what is in your tapwater or the air in your house, which is why carbon filtration is a good idea.

I would also suggest quarantining and carrying out a comprehensive treatment of medicines on any fish before they would be going in the tank.

As for plants and the mesh, you could just cut the roots off over the rigid mesh or just rip the plants out if you need to move or remove them. The roots left in place will just decompose and return their nutrients to the substrate, and the plants should be able to grow more roots again if replanted.

Here is a relevant video as well - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqdrtVYBQDY
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:44 AM   #24
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Nice project. Iīve heard that itīs important to use a coarse enough substrate to allow deep penetration of oxygen for maximum (deepest possible) bacteria growth.

A lfs here in Sweden only keep low tech (no tech really) aquariums using a special clay substrate that is basically kitty litter just bigger grains. Sounds a bit like the thing you call flourite, but cheaper.

Canīt remember the name of this substrate though and Iīve never tried it myself since itīs not very visually pleasing with a brick red substrate imho.

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Old 07-09-2013, 01:13 PM   #25
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Oh, forgot to mention the other big question mark, namely discus growth. For some reason, many say young discus don't grow as big in planted tanks. It's still not clear to my why, whether physical, psychological, etc. Maybe the discus just tend to be more content, more relaxed, less neurotic, and therefore happen to stress-eat less! Or maybe some of them instead happen to hide more and come out to eat less. Maybe it's that the hobbyists are not feeding them as heavily, as they're not expecting to dump out half their water twice a day, akin to slopping pigs with trough-fulls of constant food to fatten them up. Or maybe it has something to do with some phenomenon of organic chemistry ecology which I can't seem to find evidence of or wrap my head around...

I'd even thought about purchasing a batch of 3"-4" adolescent discus, and splitting it to raise to adulthood half in a bare tank with a drip water water supply, and the rest in a proper planted tank, to see which proves to have better vitality, colour, and growth, and then selling whichever group were least impressive, in order to hedge my bets.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:16 PM   #26
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i've always used playsand in the past, it seems permeable enough, as long as water will pass through diffusion will take care of the rest. i never even use water flow. in reef people often use the mud, which is actually considerably finer then sand, or sugar fine aragonite, which is fine as far as permeability, though not so good with other aspects. i've only ever heard of deep courser sandbeds like rubble for growing scuds and mysis. i'll have to check this out more. i'm still leaning towards sand as for me it's tried and true, but poolfilter sand shouldn't stretch my budget and after all, a new tank is for trying new things.

as far as the CO2 and oxygen i've never really concerned myself with them. it's sort of an out of sight out of mind deal. i'm sure my plants could benefit more if i actually dosed extra CO2 sometime, but that's never really been a concern of mine. my plants don't turn yellow or have many dead leaves, and they grow at a decent enough rate. they don't pearl often or grow as fast as they could i'm sure, but really all i need them for is to look nice, oxygenate my water, and take care of nitrates/phosphates.

i read somewhere once that all you need to take care of the needs of plants is like 1" of fish for a 50gal. rules like that generally aren't very helpful as it doesn't tell you how many plants, or how much waste/CO2 that 1" of fish is producing, but when i was starting out it helped me realize that one fish will produce a lot of CO2 and ammonia for plant use, so i never really felt the need to does CO2 before. and of course as a fallback there's always duckweed. it takes most of it's gas exchange from atmospheric air anyway, so it's never deprived.

as far as the meshing goes. i was thinking that if i uprooted a 2' sword plant or something it's roots would wreck a lot of havoc on any soil layering and thin mesh. where if it where like a thick plastic with 1/2" spacing the roots would probably break away without lifting the while sand bed. i'm not sure, i've always just sort of mixed my substrates up anyway, 1:4 fluorite to sand and never really cared, but with this tank i really don't want the fluorite chips exposed.

as far as the hormones and pheromones. i read an article on ebscohost about it once, but it was really long and boring, so i mostly skimmed through it. it talked mostly about small stagnant water sources though where fish will breed in large numbers, like killies and i recall something about perches being mentioned, a family i don't know much about) and mostly it was about controlling the sex of the fry, though there was mention of growth inhibition. what i took from the article though, was that with most fish it's probably not an issue, and any hormones/pheromones should be biodegradable. so in small enough numbers, it's all just proteins breaking down anyway, like with slime coat or anything else.

i'm watching the video now.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:26 PM   #27
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sweaden...psh. here in america we use coarse colored gravel to trap food so our fish don't get obese, and all our systems are connected in one big unit, so that if one fish is healthy and happy, he will spread his health and happiness to all the other fish in the neighboring units. we also use very advanced filtration systems. i won't so into the details much, but we utilizes these amazing "bio" balls. it's all very sifi. top it all off with a neon skull and vestigial bubbler, and you have one amazing tank.

if you can't tell, im not a fan of american fishkeeping, lol. we're so far behind the rest of the world. it's a cultural thing though, it's like photography with a disposable camera. everyone has an aquarium, but far far far too few actually care about the hobby.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:57 PM   #28
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i found the part where he said i "could tell you whats in there, but then i'd have to kill you" funny, because at the store i worked at we used our own mud, and when i was told what was in it, i was sworn to secrecy too, lol.

great video, it was good to see that he kept his discus at strong lighting without ill affects. i was nervous about too much lighting stressing the fish. i always have floating plants, and i usually use a folded piece of paper on one side of the tank for fish who want shade, but it would still be a fair amount of light.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:12 AM   #29
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sweaden...psh...
Iīd say itīs about the same over here and frickin all over the world. Had to fight my girlfriend not to buy a plastic castle for our first tank
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:55 PM   #30
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So Cro117, have you decided how your tank will or will not follow the low-tech/el naturale/etc methods?

If not designed carefully, you might lose a lot of the naturally produced CO2 for example, if your overflow and plumbing to your sump have a lot of turbulence. And a fully enriched soil underlay is usually recommended in such setups as well, as otherwise it might take a while for the substrate to 'charge', which might then be an unhealthy time for the plants and subsequently the fish meanwhile?

I had myself concluded that I'd be planning to run a hybridized mix of low-tech and high-tech practices.
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