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Old 07-06-2013, 06:25 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by JoraaŃ View Post
I been noticing the same thing as I stopped dosing kno3 in my tanks....why? Cause I'm out of it...Either this could be the reason or my Farlowella are taking care of the GDA. Will know for certain once I get Kno3.
my bet is that it was due to low NO3.
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Old 07-06-2013, 07:08 PM   #17
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hi there, i also suggest try other source of nitrogen beside KNO3 if you have low kh/ph. you might be getting high reading of NO3 in your tank, i figured plant wont use much NO3 due to the reasons i have explained above. you can also try low NO3 to begin with, if you don't want to try other nitrogen sources.
I am concerned that if I stop, I may crash my tank. If I lower it, I can hedge my bets at first. I really don't want to come up with a new dosing scheme yet as GDA is probably the least annoying algae to get. It's ugly but it's easy. I will see what happens and report back. I am going to have to figure out what PPM I was at to start though so it may take some time.
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Old 07-07-2013, 01:08 PM   #18
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ADA tanks have "low" Nitrate and "high" pH. Nitrate never more than 1 and pH=6.8 with P=0.01 is way "off" for most people. But the plants in ADA tanks don't mind the "bad" values.

I've heard that ADA tanks are prone to developing GDA. It'd be good to hear from someone that has run enough full blown ADA tanks.

What I've seen personally in non-ADA tanks (with NO3 in the water always being more than P because that is what we all believe in) is that when you manage to stabilize the tank to the point that no algae ever develops you always have do deal with GDA. But there are ways to adjust a few things to a point where GDA rarely needs cleaning (every 2 months for example).

Since ADA has a full blown system of running a planted tank as trouble free as possible it would be interesting to see what they do to deal with GDA. I believe that the answer is not a way to never get GDA. Probably it is about slowing down the growth to a level that allows the tank to appear clean for weeks.

A big issue that really needs clarifying is what we put behind the terms we use in this hobby. "Low", "high", "excess". It all depends on what you think is good for the plants, but the plants often have a different opinion. That's because the trend is to look at parts of the system as a cure for this or a cure for that. In this thread we talk about "high" pH and "low" NO3 and GDA disappearing. But what is the overall picture? If you must clean GDA every week off the glass then something is off in the big picture. And don't hope that Anubias will stay clean in such a tank.

The usual take on GDA is that they are "normal". Here we are presented with a claim that they can be taken care of which really sounds like something that ADA has been doing for more than 10 years now - low NO3 (in the water) and high pH. So is there an issue with GDA in an ADA tank? How fast do they develop? What are the compromises that one needs to accept to have both great plant growth and minimal GDA? To me all these questions are yet another signal that we need to understand more about how ADA tanks work as a system. Or we are doomed to discover the wheel over and over.

One way to do deal with GDA so they do not appear for months is to empty the tank and expose the GDA to air. For some reason when you fill up the tank the GDA "remembers" where the low water line was and does not grow above it. I find that strange but I've seen it at least 5 times. For a few months the algae grows up to an invisible line but not above. It's like a radiation zone that they fear. Frank from ADA talks about that in that long post showing and explaining how they run/maintain an ADA tank. I think he even has a picture of a fully drained tank explaining that that's how they expose the algae to air. Reading that may make you believe that ADA tanks do have GDA issues too. Once again - the question is how fast do they develop compared to the tanks in our living rooms.
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:31 PM   #19
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Niko thanks for your reply, am surprise that no one haven't shown much interest. i think either they don't know what GDA is or they got use to live with it.
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:30 PM   #20
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I'm reading but haven't had GDA be a problem for ages and ages. I was reading APD at the time it hit in 2002 and between my algae crew loving the stuff and the current thinking to leave it be problem solved. Once my critters had their fill in a few weeks I wiped it off and it was gone. I may have had a bit at different times but it never got to be very bad.
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:42 AM   #21
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far as i remember i have never experienced a GDA in hard water because i always had good co2 and always dosed plenty of nutrients, when you get GDA in Hard water it is due to CO2 issue. in soft water it is a different story.

I did, however, I noticed it is more common in soft low KH water.

I had it in Santa Barbara, Ca, with a GH of 24, KH of 11.

Did not fair well after about 3 weeks, it pretty much died off and never came back.

I attributed this to "plant momentum", the point in time when plant growth really takes off and defines the system, rather than nutrients defining the system. In other words, plants control things.

I think anyone that has been in the hobby long enough has seen this and when when it happens, few algae can withstand it. So the critical focus goes back the plants.

The client tank is still very algae free, and curiously, now the plants have responded and I'm seeing that plant momentum that I have not seen in the past 2-3 months they had this issue.

I increased the light intensity, increased mechanical filtration/cleanliness, added a tad more CO2. I also upped the PO4 and K+(added K2SO4 since the tap has decent Mg and Ca already).

Plant response has been very good. This tank is using Monte Carlo which is ratty for a 2-3 week period while it arches. I cannot use Nerites or Shrimp, the copper pipes and attempted to remove copper to non lethal levels has failed, even the RCS culls have never made it. So plecos and SAE's are the only options and I hate SAE's.

I noticed a marked decline in GSA on the glass at this point also. Less and less with each week. It might be due to the plants' increased biomass/momentum, but it might be to more larding on of the PO4/CO2/K2SO4.

Anyhow, there's no GDA and this was a serious issue the client had few options around.

For folks who have had GDA bad............they know what the heck..........it's a tough sucker to beat. With less light, you have much less growth and thus issues with it, but at higher light, as in 2-4X ADA lighting levels, well........it'll be pretty tough.

ADA tanks still have non limiting N and P for GDA or any other algae, plants have ample sources of N and P also in the sediment.

Many NBAT tanks also show those same parameters, but....many do large water changes the day before the shows/events/photographs to remove the mist from pearling and clean the tanks up, so the parameters match what the NBAT judges deem "good conditions". Most dose a lot more when they are not around. ADA relies on the sediment as a source, but the total N and P is essentially the same, only the location differs.

I add ADA AS and I use EI modified at fairly rich levels, I can add all the GDA laden plants and scrapings to my tanks, it does not take. I do have some plecos, gold nuggets(3 in my 120), a few royal farowellas in the 180, bushy nose in the 70 gal, only the 70 gallon has ample amounts.

The 70 gallon also has virtually no plant biomass to speak of.
Happi suggested to remove the bushy nose and see if the GDA returns, good idea, but I've not yet gotten around to it. I have increased NO3/PO4 and trace dosing though, no effect. ADA replies a lot of Amano shrimp, , some use nerites, but for glass algae, plecos seem like a simple solution.

Still, there are many cases where the GDA has been removed without such biocontrol measures. While a solution, it offers little in the way of more knowledge and what induces GDA to begin with, only then do we really have a decent management understanding with an alga species.

Happi, did you try using EM antibiotics?
This seems to cause a die back initially, but then it comes back later.

It may be an indirect relationship with the biofilms on glass that aids recruitment for GDA zoospores. But stopping biomfilm, or reducing long term is more likely to occur with good plant growth/momentum etc, than adding EM all the time.

Also, the client's tank that had GDA, had BBA, that will be addressed little by little, but suggest poor CO2. BGA on the gravel edge etc also. Low N, low CO2(or high pH). Plant growth has greatly improved and less algae of all types is growing/present. So the plecos seem to solve the immediate issue, but the long term issue was plant growth.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:41 AM   #22
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Tom

i don't give much importance to substrate unless i have heavy rooted plants, i have seen plant wont grow unless you add Liquid fert, some plants might do ok but i would say 90% in my tank did not if i don't dose liquid fert. i have already repeated it somewhere in other threads, that i had GDA when i was dosing heavy on KNO3 and PO4, mainly the problem was KNO3 as i explained earlier.

BBA happen in my tank many times, mostly due to change in Dosing, when i was dosing EI, switching back to my recipe i can see BBA occur, this might be due to the fact that plant started to grow now and changes the co2 levels. i can also see it fading away slowly after dosing for 2 weeks now. i haven't cleaned my glass for 2 weeks now, still no GDA yet. i know its hard for you to accept my theory about why KNO3 cause it, but one have to test it and see for them self. i also know for fact i have 4x39watts of TEK lights on 48g tank which is very high light and still no GDA or GW and i dose NH4 daily. i have reduced the NO3 less than 1ppm daily, my next step is to reduce it down to 0.7ppm and focus more on NH4 and Urea, now i have my hands on NH4NO3 so i can try that.

i think BN, waiting and cleaning, EM antibiotics they are only temporary solution, you have asked me if i tried EM antibiotics, i did try it while back and GDA was still growing. the only algae i get right now is Cyno, it was there in both cases low or high NO3, i have yet to find the reason why it occur. maybe its just me but i think aqua soil is prone to Cyno easier than any other substrate i ever tried, i cannot be 100% sure on this, so don't take me serious on this one.

i know you have said how plant out compete the algae when they are growing fast, i have seen the opposite in my tank, when EI did not help the plant grow much, i started dosing the NH4 along with the EI, plant took off and GDA was still growing. one change simply got rid of it, cut of the EI and continue to dose the NH4, can you explain why this happened??? same light same co2, why did GDA decide to back off?

you should also consider those people who have left their replies and some of them witness the same thing, they also use soft water. how come you did not see what the have said?? EI worked for me in hard water with high kh/ph and failed to work for me in low KH/PH, not saying it did not grow anything at all, but it was super slow and algae was the main issue 24/7. i remember when i was dosing pmdd, there was no sign of algae and plants were growing good enough.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:52 AM   #23
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One way to do deal with GDA so they do not appear for months is to empty the tank and expose the GDA to air. For some reason when you fill up the tank the GDA "remembers" where the low water line was and does not grow above it.
this is true. it happens even if i expose tank to air for a minute or so. but it is important not to clean the tank at a time, otherwise algae gets into water and reattaches to glass after water fillup

edit: i also wonder does it counts one have algae problem if have to clean glass once a month(or once/2month). i mean do i have to aim for keeping crystalclear tank without cleaning it at all or manual cleaning every month or every other month is common?

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Old 07-09-2013, 01:57 PM   #24
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this is true. it happens even if i expose tank to air for a minute or so. but it is important not to clean the tank at a time, otherwise algae gets into water and reattaches to glass after water fillup

edit: i also wonder does it counts one have algae problem if have to clean glass once a month(or once/2month). i mean do i have to aim for keeping crystalclear tank without cleaning it at all or manual cleaning every month or every other month is common?
if u clean ur glass once per month u've done pretty good
some people have to do it every 3 days.
oliver knott says he does it about every other day to "prevent" glass algaes. that does not necessarily prevent them, but more keep them from being apparent at first glance
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Old 07-09-2013, 02:41 PM   #25
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once a month sound good, if you are cleaning it every other day like Oliver knott then you are doing something wrong.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:30 AM   #26
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after finishing my GDA test, i have started the new Test on NH4, i never dosed NH4 from Ammonium Nitrate, before i was only using Urea. i have found some interesting results, i will post them soon. so far NH4 is Prone to GDA as well, i will explain why NH4 can cause Algae and why it does not cause algae, one extra small change in the solution makes it so complex that NH4 cannot be used by Algae, only plant can use it.
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:08 AM   #27
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if u clean ur glass once per month u've done pretty good
some people have to do it every 3 days.
oliver knott says he does it about every other day to "prevent" glass algaes. that does not necessarily prevent them, but more keep them from being apparent at first glance
ADA cleans their tanks very often as well. I can for awhile, but........I agree, if you have to do it that frequently, not once a month or so, you are likely doing something wrong or need to whip the tank up for a show/pic contest etc.

NH4 may or may not be the cause for GDA in your tank Happi, many folks have suggested many solutions, not one of them has helped based on my experience for all cases.

The client's tank has a large fish load, and I did not dose much KNO3, I ran it pretty lean, we did not add anything after switching to ADA AS, which has no NO3, only NH4. I do not think the NH4 vs the NO3 is the issue. You have some NO3 no matter what if you add any NH4. Some will be there.

I know a few folks that have really leaned the KNO3 dosing with no impact on GDA, so the NH4.....it's not a question of me accepting what you are saying, isolated cases and correlation do not prove much. When other folks can do it and not have GDA, then we expand and see who cannot cure it with such methods. The observations are not in your favor. It has nothing to do with my accepting or believing anything.

they still feed their fish, so some NH4 was present, maybe aq critical ppm of NH4 and virtually no NO3 is required, but you have not shown or stated that to be the case, I'm very skeptical that is the real underlying issue.

You can happened upon a cure for yourself that may or may not be the case.
I can say the same about leaving it be for 3-4 weeks, then wiping it clean. This did in fact work for many folks, but............not for everyone.
The same may be true for your hypothesis.

Switch back and dose KNO3 and see.
Then repeat.
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:26 AM   #28
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Tom

i don't give much importance to substrate unless i have heavy rooted plants, i have seen plant wont grow unless you add Liquid fert, some plants might do ok but i would say 90% in my tank did not if i don't dose liquid fert. i have already repeated it somewhere in other threads, that i had GDA when i was dosing heavy on KNO3 and PO4, mainly the problem was KNO3 as i explained earlier.

BBA happen in my tank many times, mostly due to change in Dosing, when i was dosing EI, switching back to my recipe i can see BBA occur, this might be due to the fact that plant started to grow now and changes the co2 levels. i can also see it fading away slowly after dosing for 2 weeks now. i haven't cleaned my glass for 2 weeks now, still no GDA yet. i know its hard for you to accept my theory about why KNO3 cause it, but one have to test it and see for them self. i also know for fact i have 4x39watts of TEK lights on 48g tank which is very high light and still no GDA or GW and i dose NH4 daily. i have reduced the NO3 less than 1ppm daily, my next step is to reduce it down to 0.7ppm and focus more on NH4 and Urea, now i have my hands on NH4NO3 so i can try that.

i think BN, waiting and cleaning, EM antibiotics they are only temporary solution, you have asked me if i tried EM antibiotics, i did try it while back and GDA was still growing. the only algae i get right now is Cyno, it was there in both cases low or high NO3, i have yet to find the reason why it occur. maybe its just me but i think aqua soil is prone to Cyno easier than any other substrate i ever tried, i cannot be 100% sure on this, so don't take me serious on this one.

i know you have said how plant out compete the algae when they are growing fast, i have seen the opposite in my tank, when EI did not help the plant grow much, i started dosing the NH4 along with the EI, plant took off and GDA was still growing. one change simply got rid of it, cut of the EI and continue to dose the NH4, can you explain why this happened??? same light same co2, why did GDA decide to back off?

you should also consider those people who have left their replies and some of them witness the same thing, they also use soft water. how come you did not see what the have said?? EI worked for me in hard water with high kh/ph and failed to work for me in low KH/PH, not saying it did not grow anything at all, but it was super slow and algae was the main issue 24/7. i remember when i was dosing pmdd, there was no sign of algae and plants were growing good enough.
BBA sounds more like CO2 issues than anything to do with nutrient dosing.

You also state that the plants did not grow much using EI, anyone worth their pile of beans knows EI will grow plants at max rates. Unless you use lower/less light, or.........you use less CO2/have CO2 issues.......that's the only way to have an issue with plant growth. I have a lot of the touchier hard to grow species, I seem to sell an awful lot of them somehow.
There's no way to escape Liebig's law. More ferts/more CO2/more light= more weeds.

I had the same experience with EM, I farmed the test out to some folks who had the GDA, it was a temporary love fest like your own experience. Sewingalot was certain she was right and claimed I was wrong. Well......

Been here and done this many, many times. I am glad you have no fear of NH4 dosing, a lot folks seem to when dosing to the water column. Even if you get GW, so what? A UV and it's gone. NH4 is toxic to fish and shrimp, but planted tanks mitigate this a good deal.

If you limit N, even if you dose a mix of NH4 and NO3 at a low low level, the plants will slow their growth and a CO2 limitation will now become a slight N limitation. This need not be cessation of growth, just reduced growth. Moderate or mild reduction, will lead to large gains with CO2 demand in plants.

PO4 limitation should also product a similar range if you care to try it. Plants tend to be more tolerant of PO4 limitation than N though. But there's no reason why N limitation cannot/does not work if you dose carefully.
Either way, it gets back to good old Liebig.

So there, I explained it, and I explained this about 15 years ago using the same logic with PO4 Why does my tank not have it? Why do other folks' have it? I do not know, but I know what I can falsify.

Not much else.
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:52 AM   #29
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ADA cleans their tanks very often as well. I can for awhile, but........I agree, if you have to do it that frequently, not once a month or so, you are likely doing something wrong or need to whip the tank up for a show/pic contest etc.

NH4 may or may not be the cause for GDA in your tank Happi, many folks have suggested many solutions, not one of them has helped based on my experience for all cases.

The client's tank has a large fish load, and I did not dose much KNO3, I ran it pretty lean, we did not add anything after switching to ADA AS, which has no NO3, only NH4. I do not think the NH4 vs the NO3 is the issue. You have some NO3 no matter what if you add any NH4. Some will be there.

I know a few folks that have really leaned the KNO3 dosing with no impact on GDA, so the NH4.....it's not a question of me accepting what you are saying, isolated cases and correlation do not prove much. When other folks can do it and not have GDA, then we expand and see who cannot cure it with such methods. The observations are not in your favor. It has nothing to do with my accepting or believing anything.

they still feed their fish, so some NH4 was present, maybe aq critical ppm of NH4 and virtually no NO3 is required, but you have not shown or stated that to be the case, I'm very skeptical that is the real underlying issue.

You can happened upon a cure for yourself that may or may not be the case.
I can say the same about leaving it be for 3-4 weeks, then wiping it clean. This did in fact work for many folks, but............not for everyone.
The same may be true for your hypothesis.

Switch back and dose KNO3 and see.
Then repeat.
so you want me to repeat the same mistake again which i have been repeating again over again with no success, if you really want me to try the EI again i will do it, but i know the outcome when using 0kh and soft water. i don't think you understood me correctly, i have never said high NO3 was the cause of GDA, i have said it was the cause of GDA when you lack Bacteria and have 0 kh low PH water.
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Old 07-12-2013, 05:08 AM   #30
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BBA sounds more like CO2 issues than anything to do with nutrient dosing.

You also state that the plants did not grow much using EI, anyone worth their pile of beans knows EI will grow plants at max rates. Unless you use lower/less light, or.........you use less CO2/have CO2 issues.......that's the only way to have an issue with plant growth. I have a lot of the touchier hard to grow species, I seem to sell an awful lot of them somehow.
There's no way to escape Liebig's law. More ferts/more CO2/more light= more weeds.

I had the same experience with EM, I farmed the test out to some folks who had the GDA, it was a temporary love fest like your own experience. Sewingalot was certain she was right and claimed I was wrong. Well......

Been here and done this many, many times. I am glad you have no fear of NH4 dosing, a lot folks seem to when dosing to the water column. Even if you get GW, so what? A UV and it's gone. NH4 is toxic to fish and shrimp, but planted tanks mitigate this a good deal.

If you limit N, even if you dose a mix of NH4 and NO3 at a low low level, the plants will slow their growth and a CO2 limitation will now become a slight N limitation. This need not be cessation of growth, just reduced growth. Moderate or mild reduction, will lead to large gains with CO2 demand in plants.

PO4 limitation should also product a similar range if you care to try it. Plants tend to be more tolerant of PO4 limitation than N though. But there's no reason why N limitation cannot/does not work if you dose carefully.
Either way, it gets back to good old Liebig.

So there, I explained it, and I explained this about 15 years ago using the same logic with PO4 Why does my tank not have it? Why do other folks' have it? I do not know, but I know what I can falsify.

Not much else.
same old stuff again, increase the co2 and keep on increasing it, kill some fish and see how the plats are dosing, have done both and no good results, however doing the same with higher PH/Kh did help the plant grew better, same did not happen under very soft water.

you cannot tell me that my co2 are low, my lights or ferts are low, i overdosed both and found small plant growth and big algae growth, algae was growing 100X more than the plants, do you want me to direct you to my video again where everything was kept the same and only change was made switched KNO3 to Urea. plants grew 100 times better and healthier.

people dont know how to use NH4, everywhere i have read your post you have mentioned how you also got green water and it caused algae, it seems like you have no idea either how to use NH4. you defend EI and shows picture of tank with high nutrients and no algae and i can show you the same using NH4 and no algae, either both of us are wrong or correct, in both cases algae can exist, so who is right, me or you. i think we both are wrong, the only way to find the truth is to see what people experience in their tank, why do we have algae threads everyday on the forum? most people use Dry EI dosing and there should be less threads on algae everyday, why is it only increasing instead of decreasing. how come i never seen any algae thread on ADA product, even sea chem product.

you can repeat the same thing over and over again about co2, ferts being low, but i am already convinced after seeing the results, am not new to this hobby and i think i know what am doing.
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