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Old 05-20-2013, 08:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zdnet View Post
Those bacteria are plentiful in ordinary soil. For a detailed explanation, see Diana's book "Ecology of the planted aquarium".
Im well versed on the bacterial ecology of soil

OP did not mention the use of soil of a substrate.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:46 PM   #17
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That's absolutely not true in this case. Again, plants can use ammonia as a food source. And the bacteria that grows on the surfaces of plants can process wastes. But that does not mean the plants serve as the sole source of filtration in a planted tank. Or in this case, the OP's tank.

Not everyone is going to have an aquarium so thickly planted with high-growth plants that an electrically-powered filter is unnecessary. That's why it is important for filter media within an actual filter have time to grow and develop bacteria that can process ammonia. For example: exactly what the OP is trying to do.

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In a planted tank, the plants themselves are the filter media. Thus, there is no traditional filter media to be established.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:52 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Shazray View Post
I don't think that is possible without having some type of seeded media in the tank. For the nitrogen cycle to start ammonia needs to be added to the water.
It sure is possible

Test it out on your next tank if you want. It just takes more patience cause you have to wait 4-5 weeks to be safe.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:55 PM   #19
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This is an absurd argument ... it is simple science for anyone who understands the nitrogen cycle. I am checking out of this one.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:10 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by somewhatshocked View Post
That's absolutely not true in this case. Again, plants can use ammonia as a food source. And the bacteria that grows on the surfaces of plants can process wastes. But that does not mean the plants serve as the sole source of filtration in a planted tank. Or in this case, the OP's tank.

Not everyone is going to have an aquarium so thickly planted with high-growth plants that an electrically-powered filter is unnecessary. That's why it is important for filter media within an actual filter have time to grow and develop bacteria that can process ammonia. For example: exactly what the OP is trying to do.
A heavily planted tank is already cycled. Of course, people can still choose to follow a set of old procedure that is no longer required.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:20 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by zdnet View Post
A heavily planted tank is already cycled. Of course, people can still choose to follow a set of old procedure that is no longer required.
You really don't understand the definition of a cycle do you. All the plants do is mask the slow production of ammonia and other nitrogen based waste. This is only possible with a light bioload, and if for some reason you get a spike in ammonia the plants will not be able to react quick enough to take it out. Bacteria don't stop metabolizing these compounds. Plants stop when the lights go out. Plants don't cycle an aquarium.

Now if we're talking about the Walsted method, then thats different. But once again you need a low bioload or the plants/soil bacteria will not keep up with the waste production.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:38 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemsons2k View Post
You really don't understand the definition of a cycle do you.
Cycling is about the process of growing bacteria. But when the bacteria is already there, no cycling is required. Thus, the tank is already cycled.


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Originally Posted by Clemsons2k View Post
All the plants do is mask the slow production of ammonia and other nitrogen based waste.
Read Diana's book and you will understand that plants do not "mask" things. They actually take in the waste products.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemsons2k View Post
This is only possible with a light bioload, and if for some reason you get a spike in ammonia the plants will not be able to react quick enough to take it out. Bacteria don't stop metabolizing these compounds.
Just like filter media surface, plant surface have plenty of bacteria.
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:39 PM   #23
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A heavily planted tank is not already cycled. That's misinformation, plainly, and serves only to confuse newbies. There's no sense in having a silly argument about something so common and modern in this hobby. People fishlessly cycle tanks in order to provide the most humane, comfortable and pseudo-natural environment for their livestock.

Plants use ammonia as food. That doesn't mean bacteria are present to consume waste as would occur in a cycled tank. No, the tank is not cycled just because plants are present. Just because plants are in a tank doesn't mean all the bacteria necessary for a tank to process a full fishload outside of what plants use are present.

Yes, plants using ammonia as food can and do mask things. Just because your mass of plants uses x PPM of ammonia doesn't mean there's enough bacteria in the tank to process that x PPM of ammonia.

The OP is not using the Walstad method. No one mentioned using mineralized soil. The OP merely asked questions about how to do a fishless cycle using ammonia.
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:48 PM   #24
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http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...ishless-cycle?

I'd like to know too. Maybe a heavily planted tank has little room for fish -> bio-load won't be high?
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:04 PM   #25
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If there are tons of plants, they eat the ammonia up.

Tom's method of heavily planting can work but it's not what I would consider ideal for newbies. Not when one can cycle without livestock and without cramming a tank completely full of plants by using an ammonia source.

It's absolutely not a method I would use (I wouldn't use it for any reason - I prefer mature tanks) for sensitive livestock at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinBear View Post
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread...ishless-cycle?

I'd like to know too. Maybe a heavily planted tank has little room for fish -> bio-load won't be high?
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:07 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somewhatshocked View Post
A heavily planted tank is not already cycled. That's misinformation, plainly, and serves only to confuse newbies. There's no sense in having a silly argument about something so common and modern in this hobby. People fishlessly cycle tanks in order to provide the most humane, comfortable and pseudo-natural environment for their livestock.

Plants use ammonia as food. That doesn't mean bacteria are present to consume waste as would occur in a cycled tank. No, the tank is not cycled just because plants are present. Just because plants are in a tank doesn't mean all the bacteria necessary for a tank to process a full fishload outside of what plants use are present.

Yes, plants using ammonia as food can and do mask things. Just because your mass of plants uses x PPM of ammonia doesn't mean there's enough bacteria in the tank to process that x PPM of ammonia.

The OP is not using the Walstad method. No one mentioned using mineralized soil. The OP merely asked questions about how to do a fishless cycle using ammonia.
Obviously, the concept that a heavily planted tank is already cycled is something so foreign to your experience that you label it as misinformation. I suggest you pick up a copy of Diana's book, read it from cover to cover, and then experiment with what you've learned. You will find that fishless cycle is not required in a heavily planted tank.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:12 PM   #27
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No, it's not foreign to me at all. Let's keep attitude out of this discussion. A heavy plant load does not a cycled aquarium make. It just means the large plant mass can consume the amount of ammonia present. It does not mean that filter media and the tank itself are cycled and covered in biofilm. No matter how you slice it, that's not what it means.

I've read Diana's book for dirt-based aquariums. I've been a hobbyist for 20+ years. Let's not get into petty arguments.

A fishless cycle is not required in a heavily planted tank for some livestock. You said it yourself. That's not what the OP is asking. The OP asked about fishlessly cycling with ammonia. That's why so many of us chimed in with advice.
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