marmorkrebs?
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:59 PM   #1
Soothing Shrimp
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marmorkrebs?


Anyone notice any genetic drift in their marmorkrebs? Different amounts of melanin or anything?
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:06 PM   #2
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They are all genetically identical, so genetic drift is not possible. It's possible that you could have spontaneous mutations in your crays, but these are extremely rare.

If you are noticing changes in coloration, it is much more likely to be due to changes in their diet or water chemistry.

I have seen some get quite blue and then fade over time, but I think it is environmentally determined.
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Last edited by Lexinverts; 04-11-2013 at 04:07 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:30 PM   #3
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I love answers like that. LOL It's true that it's rare, the mutations that do happen in cloning would be considered genetic drifts. That's why I asked here to see if anyone has experienced any.

Once again, I'm going against the grain and thinking about selecting small genetic drifts to see if I could vary the color of strain. Guess it's the hippie in me.

(I do agree though that blue usually denotes a food such as spirulina or astaxanthin being used, or having recently molted.)
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:37 PM   #4
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I present to you for example a white marmorkrebs mutation (owner Vera from Arizona inverts):

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Old 04-11-2013, 06:15 PM   #5
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That would awesome if you could ! I find the brown marble color is why not many people choose these great Crays and keep the orange /blue variety .
Get them started ... I would live to read a journal on your hopefully success at this !
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Old 04-11-2013, 06:17 PM   #6
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I'm very seriously thinking about this Steven, as selective breeding is a passion of mine. Although, I think this would be more selective choosing. LOL

I just need to figure out where to unload the hundreds of offspring that are not used.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:02 PM   #7
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From my Marmorkrebs I have seen different Hues of Blue which eventually fade and change to a brownish color. Some of the younger ones are a translucent blue but it eventually changes to a brown.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:13 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soothing Shrimp View Post
I present to you for example a white marmorkrebs mutation (owner Vera from Arizona inverts):
I doubt that the trait will be passed on to the offspring. I guess if it is, then it is an example of a spontaneous mutation. AI has been known to misidentify animals, BTW...
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:18 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soothing Shrimp View Post
I love answers like that. LOL It's true that it's rare, the mutations that do happen in cloning would be considered genetic drifts. That's why I asked here to see if anyone has experienced any.

Once again, I'm going against the grain and thinking about selecting small genetic drifts to see if I could vary the color of strain. Guess it's the hippie in me.
I think you mean selecting new mutations or line-breeding.

"Genetic drift" is measured at the population level, and is changes in allele frequencies due to random processes. That's why I said genetic drift is not possible in Marmorkrebs. All alleles are fixed at the same percentage in every individual, so if some random event killed off one group of crays, it wouldn't affect overall allele frequencies because they all are the same, everywhere. The only way this could change is if a new mutation added a new allele to the population. This is very rare, but if it happened, it would most likely increase due to line-breeding rather than random processes.

I think you'll end up chasing lots of wild geese with these crays, since the vast majority of the variability that you observe will be due to the environment--lots of dead ends (and brown crays).
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Last edited by Lexinverts; 04-11-2013 at 07:29 PM.. Reason: addition
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:04 PM   #10
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Lexinverts, thank you for setting me straight on the alleles. This ugly dog learns something new everyday.

You may very well be correct about the wild "cray" chase. LOL But I've been known to go against conventional wisdom before just to see what would happen. If I'm lucky, maybe I'll find something. If not, you were correct all the way.
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexinverts View Post
I doubt that the trait will be passed on to the offspring. I guess if it is, then it is an example of a spontaneous mutation. AI has been known to misidentify animals, BTW...
Noted. Thanks.
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:54 AM   #12
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developing a new strain of marmorkreb would be quite a bit more problematic than normal shrimp. without any genetic variance, you would have to use a mutogen. with normal shrimp with a wide gene pool, some individuals will always be better adapted for a specific set of adverse conditions than others. that allows you to immediately select for something and shift the entire population into the direction of that particular genotype. supposedly, thats how evolution works.

if you can do that with marmorkrebs without a mutogen and demonstrate a change in genetics, it may present a challenge to our current understanding of genetics. such an outcome would indicate that environment alone can affect gene expression in ontogenetic development in the offspring, which would be quite a profound observation. marmorkrebs are a perfect subject for this though, since they are all clones of each other.
any genetic differences would be a lot easier to track.

if i ever get any, ill do some LD-50 type experiments and compare the offspring of the survivors to the phylogenetically standard marmorkreb.

no wonder geneticists love marmorkrebs...
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:11 AM   #13
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Yepper. Conventional theories simply state that it cannot be done. Black and white, and crystal clear without any doubts.

I'm just a person who enjoys pushing conventional wisdom. heh
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Old 04-13-2013, 03:07 PM   #14
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Any X-ray techs also raising marmokrebs out there...?
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:16 PM   #15
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you wouldnt have to expose them to x-ray. i was thinking about getting some uranium ore a while back, crushing it up, and using it as substrate...

while the purified stuff is illegal to possess, you can get the ore as long as you order small quantities of it. if used as a substrate, it would expose the developing eggs of the marmorkrebs to constant low levels of radiation, which would probably have the highest chances of causing some random mutations in the developing young. in the ore form, it doesnt actually produce a lot of radiation, and being in water, it would pose very little risk to those working with it. water is an excellent modifier.

another source would be old smoke detectors, since they use a radioactive metal in them. its quite a bit more radiation than you would find in natural uranium ore, and i have no idea how likely the metal would be to dissolve in water. i think it would be more toxic than wild uranium ore.

another option would be the old coleman lamps. there is a white cloth looking cover that , when exposed to a flame, glows bright white. again though, its much more radioactive than uranium ore, and i have no idea how likely it is to dissolve.

finally, there is the option of UV germicidal bulbs. they produce a wavelength that is known to damage DNA, and are often used for studies where random mutations in-vivo are preferred to those produced in a PRC. i dont yet know if it would work for shrimp, but i know from experience it works on the eggs of houseflies.
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