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Old 03-27-2013, 04:42 AM   #46
mistahoo
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Question about cycle a new tank for shrimp


I sense ruffled feathers. If you want to make sure you have a fresh bottle, there should be a manufacturing date on the bottle. Pick one that was manufactured recently. As for me, I've always seeded my tanks with established media. I'm not saying TSS is a bad idea as I've never tried it. I just recently started using Seachem stability. I'll see how well that works for my newest tank with ADA Aquasoil and report back.

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Old 03-27-2013, 05:22 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MABJ View Post
Lex, I doubt a bottle of bacteria would last that long.
Under the correct conditions, bacteria can live for as long as 25 million years...

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/268/5213/1060

Bacteria are amazingly resilient creatures. In fact bacteria survived after one of the Apollo missions for THREE YEARS in space!

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news.../ast01sep98_1/

So 12 months in a bottle is nothing when the conditions are right. There were some cultures of nitrifying bacteria in the past that needed to be refrigerated, and these particular strains were not as reliable. That is not the case any more.

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I think the arguing and snide attitude people are taking is unnecessary.
I agree. I was told that I was giving "poor advice." And "setting the OP up for failure," when in fact I was sharing my extensive experience with this product.

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The big ticket issue with the bacterial in the bottle is it is basically seeding the aquarium. Something one can do with a filter sponge from a filter from another tank and actually get an instant cycle.
I've done that many times too, but it doesn't work as well as the concentrated bacteria in Safe Start.

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Everybody knows that even after a Few days, if you have nothing giving off ammonia, your nitrates begin to die off, and with it, your cycle.

The thought of nitrates in a bottle is silly to some because it is true, the expire date isn't always when it expires.
(I'm assuming that you mean nitrifying bacteria, not nitrates.) That could be true. But again, I've only had one bad bottle out of 30 with this stuff (even then, I didn't have any losses). It is certainly not common for this to happen, in my experience.

Moreover, you take a risk whenever you use a product that it might not be as advertised. Every time I re-mineralize my water with Salty Shrimp, I run the risk that I have a bad batch. The same is true for when I use dechlorinator. We all live with some risk in our invert-keeping routines.

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Lets all respect each other's opinions and remember that there is controversy around these things because they may work for some but don't for others. There is no proper way to cycle. There are humane, inhumane, fast and slow ways.

What you do is your choice, though I might not agree with it, I'll fight to the death for your right to talk about it .
I don't disagree with that. Let's just all speak from experience, and be open to new information that is outside of our own experience.
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Last edited by Lexinverts; 03-27-2013 at 07:08 AM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:38 PM   #48
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Default Question about cycle a new tank for shrimp

No I did mean nitrates, as if there's nothing feeding them, your cycle goes kaput. But yes nitrifying bacteria in overall scope.

I have no doubt certain bacteria can live quite long lol. Probably not relevant here, as we are talking about a particular strain. That's an interesting bit of news though. Thanks for the read.

There truly are a million and one factors that could influence a batch being bad.

I will just say, I test all my remineralizers, RO water and my prime/chloramine removers.

That's the big difference here. You can't really test if your bacteria in a bottle is still alive.

My last point, is if you do throw in a bad bottle, you really could hurt your residents. Many fish can be physically injured a LOT and not actually die.

I'll just end on that. It was my choice after much research not to use it. It doesn't make me unqualified to at least say my research made me not want to use it, you know?
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Old 03-27-2013, 03:20 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by MABJ View Post
No I did mean nitrates, as if there's nothing feeding them, your cycle goes kaput. But yes nitrifying bacteria in overall scope.
Nitrifying/Ammonifying bacteria feed on Nitrite and Ammonia, not nitrates.
There is not any nitrite or ammonia in the bottle of SafeStart, which is why you need to add it along with some livestock---otherwise the bacteria will starve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MABJ View Post
I have no doubt certain bacteria can live quite long lol. Probably not relevant here, as we are talking about a particular strain. That's an interesting bit of news though. Thanks for the read.

There truly are a million and one factors that could influence a batch being bad.

I will just say, I test all my remineralizers, RO water and my prime/chloramine removers.
How do you test your chloramine removers?

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That's the big difference here. You can't really test if your bacteria in a bottle is still alive.
Yes you can. That's why I recommended that the OP test for ammonia 12 hrs after adding the SafeStart.

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My last point, is if you do throw in a bad bottle, you really could hurt your residents. Many fish can be physically injured a LOT and not actually die.
If you have ever purchased fish online, and they spent 24 to 48 hrs in a bag, you subjected them to the same thing. There are few nitrifying bacteria in the shipping bag, although many sellers add some purigen to reduce the ammonia problem. Shrimp can handle a little ammonia for 24 to 48 hrs. If not, it wouldn't be so easy to ship them all over the country via Priority mail. Again, you almost never get a bad bottle of Safe Start if you check the freshness date, so your chances of subjecting the shrimp to stress with SS are actually LESS than if you purchased those same shrimp online.

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I'll just end on that. It was my choice after much research not to use it. It doesn't make me unqualified to at least say my research made me not want to use it, you know?
I wholeheartedly agree.
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Old 03-27-2013, 03:59 PM   #50
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Hi All, thanks for all advices. I went to LFS yesterday right after my work, bought two bottle of TSS, go straight home after that ... Dump entire first bottle in 5gal tank with 1 small fish, because I already have water run more than 24hrs (prime added). Waited 5 hours check all level, see some ammonia and then waited over night .. Now A and N level down to Zero.

What you think?
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:01 PM   #51
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Default Question about cycle a new tank for shrimp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexinverts View Post
Nitrifying/Ammonifying bacteria feed on Nitrite and Ammonia, not nitrates.
There is not any nitrite or ammonia in the bottle of SafeStart, which is why you need to add it along with some livestock---otherwise the bacteria will starve.



How do you test your chloramine removers?



Yes you can. That's why I recommended that the OP test for ammonia 12 hrs after adding the SafeStart.



If you have ever purchased fish online, and they spent 24 to 48 hrs in a bag, you subjected them to the same thing. There are few nitrifying bacteria in the shipping bag, although many sellers add some purigen to reduce the ammonia problem. Shrimp can handle a little ammonia for 24 to 48 hrs. If not, it wouldn't be so easy to ship them all over the country via Priority mail. Again, you almost never get a bad bottle of Safe Start if you check the freshness date, so your chances of subjecting the shrimp to stress with SS are actually LESS than if you purchased those same shrimp online.
I'm a shrimper, so I've never shipped fish. I imagine inverts are similar yet not.

Testing for ammonia in the water isn't preventative, was my point. You can prevent other crappy things with your remineralizers and such.

I run a variety of tests on my water I top off with, and I mix it before hand. Largely, I do a TDS test which tells me if anything else is wrong. I do a GH and KH test, PH test as well.

If none of those are swinging, I know my remineralizer+chloramine remover is working and not bad.

I meant the nitrates in the tank lol. They need teh foods to stay alive. I'm not exactly 100% confident of the chemical makeup of the TSS and others, so I couldn't say exactly what is in it.
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:10 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Master503 View Post
Hi All, thanks for all advices. I went to LFS yesterday right after my work, bought two bottle of TSS, go straight home after that ... Dump entire first bottle in 5gal tank with 1 small fish, because I already have water run more than 24hrs (prime added). Waited 5 hours check all level, see some ammonia and then waited over night .. Now A and N level down to Zero.

What you think?
Make sure there's something in the tank feeding the bacteria until you add the shrimp. Otherwise it will die off and you'll have to start all over.
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:45 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master503 View Post
Hi All, thanks for all advices. I went to LFS yesterday right after my work, bought two bottle of TSS, go straight home after that ... Dump entire first bottle in 5gal tank with 1 small fish, because I already have water run more than 24hrs (prime added). Waited 5 hours check all level, see some ammonia and then waited over night .. Now A and N level down to Zero.

What you think?
That's been my experience too. If you want to be sure, keep the fish in there for a few days, and check the levels again. Otherwise, you should be good to add a few shrimp. It's always best to start out slow, so I wouldn't add more than 5.

As Nubster said, keep some livestock in there to keep feeding the bacteria with ammonia, or they will die off.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:49 PM   #54
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I just put some moss and piece of small wood from other cycled tanked. I will leave the tank for few days make sure parameters are stable
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:43 AM   #55
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I also run another 2.5gal tank as new cycling with TSS. Water parameters now are Ammonia: 0.25, nitrites 0 ppm and nitrates are 20 ppm. Is this sound correct? It been running for 2 days, i guess need to wait for until 0 for ammonia? Do i need to do wc?

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Old 04-09-2013, 10:37 AM   #56
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this may work for adult shrimp but any that are berried or for smaller new born to juvies may not survive in the tank due to lack of bacteria and enzymes necessary to sustain their lives.

Fair warning that you'll need to monitor tds, ammonia and nitrates for spikes to perform water changes until the tanks are cycled.

transferring substrate from an established tank will be the best bang for the buck as there isnt much bacteria free floating in the old water. the most beneficial bacteria will be in the substrate, on the glass and in the filter media... transplanting driftwood and large stones from an established plant would help.

if you must do a quick cycle tank, consider using bacteria supplements which have the correct bacteria strain. Nutrafin is one that comes to mind. good luck.
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:32 PM   #57
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i had to break down a tank..

i have 7.9 tank.. and will be adding 17 shrimp..

with some plants from other tanks..

think i will be ok?

if i have to.. i may have a seeded sponge to add.. but with shrimp bioload to low.. imho.. it may not be necessary.. thoughts?
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:46 PM   #58
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i had to break down a tank..

i have 7.9 tank.. and will be adding 17 shrimp..

with some plants from other tanks..

think i will be ok?

if i have to.. i may have a seeded sponge to add.. but with shrimp bioload to low.. imho.. it may not be necessary.. thoughts?
Is your tank cycled or not?... You just won speedie's RAOK, no? OBETs need special parameters to not die hasty deaths.
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:32 PM   #59
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Is your tank cycled or not?... You just won speedie's RAOK, no? OBETs need special parameters to not die hasty deaths.
Yes. But all my shrimp tanks already have neo & caridina already in them.. so can't mix them in those tanks..

Probably will jus take out a seeded sponge out of fish tank..
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:56 PM   #60
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With OBET...you're really risking it by just throwing them in a tank with a seeded sponge. It'll be ashame to get such nice shrimp from a great RAOK just to watch them die off.
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