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Old 04-03-2013, 06:29 PM   #16
dasob85
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Oh man, you just threw another gurgle elimination device at me lol. Looks like I still have more research to do lol. this one looks complicated too.

I think I'll just overengineer and avoid the dado joints which seem like they will take more time to do compared to just slapping on extra vertical support.

Is a refugium necessary on a planted tank though? I think I read something in a thread about if you have a super high light in the sump or an HOB, the algae will grow there and not in the main tank. not sure if it was definitively proven though
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:11 PM   #17
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Oh man, you just threw another gurgle elimination device at me lol. Looks like I still have more research to do lol. this one looks complicated too.

I think I'll just overengineer and avoid the dado joints which seem like they will take more time to do compared to just slapping on extra vertical support.

Is a refugium necessary on a planted tank though? I think I read something in a thread about if you have a super high light in the sump or an HOB, the algae will grow there and not in the main tank. not sure if it was definitively proven though
The dadoes really take but a few minutes to cut. Even with a circ saw. Done right they not only look better but cut down on weight and wood. It's a simple repetitive cut. I make the kerfs 1/4" apart hamer the waste out clean up the bottom with a sharp chisel. If you have a router it's even faster.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:32 PM   #18
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Graphic the three offset baffles are usually just a bubble trap in sumps that have a protein skimmer. You can probably better utilize that space with just a single initial baffle then make a compartment for biomedia or whatever you want to run in it. I keep my return pump in a very small baffled section and use the rest for other things. Has anyone on here every done a freshwater refugium with a reverse light cycle?
anyone? anyone?
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:10 AM   #19
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Oh man, you just threw another gurgle elimination device at me lol. Looks like I still have more research to do lol. this one looks complicated too.

I think I'll just overengineer and avoid the dado joints which seem like they will take more time to do compared to just slapping on extra vertical support.

Is a refugium necessary on a planted tank though? I think I read something in a thread about if you have a super high light in the sump or an HOB, the algae will grow there and not in the main tank. not sure if it was definitively proven though
Haha, the the hofer gurgle buster is easy to build, it only looks complicated. If you don't have a dremel it would be more time consuming. There is a lot of them out there, and it seems most of them are pretty effective.

Like GraphicGr8s said, the dados are really easy to cut and have other nice benefits. After I had the legs cut, I clamped all 4 together evenly, set up my table saw, and ran through all the cuts to chisel them away.

I don't really see it as necessary, but the amount of filter media, equipment space, larger water volume, etc. made it worthwhile. For me it was cheaper to build than buying a canister filter, and using an open stand, has given me another area to grow plants submerged and as a riparium. I don't know if it could be used to control algae, I guess it would be a good area to use an algae scrubber (don't know how well they work).
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:21 AM   #20
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Speaking of the baffle to the left, how tall is it? It looks like your return pump's compartment is very small, this means you'll get a very quick drop in water level as water evaporates from the system. Unless you have an automatic topoff, you may find that you'll need to be adding water to compensate for evap several times a week to keep the pump from sucking air.

I didnt really have a set height in mind. I figured anywhere from half of the pump's height to full height. The primary purpose is for any dirty stuff and ceramic media to stay away from the pump. From my understanding, if the water level drops below the level of the pump, I'll have issues anyway?
Can I get an answer to this? I dont want to burn out a pump for nothing I'll draw a "minimum" line around 2 inches above the pump? I plan to use a pump with a gph around 800-900 after 5ft of head. I am debating between magdrive and eheim since those 2 seem to be the more popular pumps

Last edited by dasob85; 04-04-2013 at 03:35 AM.. Reason: added pump gph
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:23 AM   #21
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Graphic the three offset baffles are usually just a bubble trap in sumps that have a protein skimmer. You can probably better utilize that space with just a single initial baffle then make a compartment for biomedia or whatever you want to run in it. I keep my return pump in a very small baffled section and use the rest for other things.
I figured with the 3 baffles, that will force the water to go through the foam/whatever media. If I just had a big open area, I'd have to stuff the sump full with media to account for the variations in water level wouldn't I?
I think I saw a thread where someone did the reverse light cycle but everyone was wondering why lol. I think it can work, but I dont want to buy another light and I'm planning on a easy maintenance/ minimal trim tank I'll use frogbit to outcompete the algae if I have to. I did want to try to put on a hob breeder box to attempt to grow blackworms. If it works out well, I could consider trying to do the same in the middle part of the sump and get rid of the breeder box although the main display will probably have rcs for (occasional) live food.

I dont think I mentioned it, but I want the tank to have around 17 dwarf chain loaches and 25 rummy nose tetras and 6 otos.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:42 AM   #22
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Haha, the the hofer gurgle buster is easy to build, it only looks complicated. If you don't have a dremel it would be more time consuming. There is a lot of them out there, and it seems most of them are pretty effective.
The hofer does look really complicated lol more people do say good things about it when compared to durso but no one really compared it to a herbie or the beananimal. Is there a comparison between all the different kinds of overflow?
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Old 04-04-2013, 04:03 AM   #23
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actually, googling about quieting drains led me to this article http://www.wetwebmedia.com/SystemPIX...Oneinchart.htm

according to him, a 1 inch drain can flow 300gph safely without noise?
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:22 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dasob85 View Post
Can I get an answer to this? I dont want to burn out a pump for nothing I'll draw a "minimum" line around 2 inches above the pump? I plan to use a pump with a gph around 800-900 after 5ft of head. I am debating between magdrive and eheim since those 2 seem to be the more popular pumps
It's hard to give an answer without seeing a specific pump in action. A few inches above the pump's intake will probably be enough. The good news is, if it's not high enough you can just draw a higher line and keep the sump topped off to that line instead. It will be easy to test this when you're setting up, just get the thing running and suck water out of the system until the pump just starts sucking air. Then draw a line a few inches above that and you have your safe minimum.


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I figured with the 3 baffles, that will force the water to go through the foam/whatever media. If I just had a big open area, I'd have to stuff the sump full with media to account for the variations in water level wouldn't I?
I like the baffles for this purpose, too. I'd keep them.


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according to him, a 1 inch drain can flow 300gph safely without noise?
Good luck getting a straight answer to this question. Depending on who you ask, a 1" mixed flow drain (that is, one that's sucking air and water) can handle as little as 50 gph or as much as 500-600 gph "quietly." It's hard to put a real number on it because different plumbing arrangements will behave differently, and people have different meanings of the word "quietly." The only way to have a truly silent drain (and a drain that has the least CO2 offgassing) would be a Herbie or Bean style drain, i.e. one that includes a valved full siphon.
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:14 PM   #25
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Good luck getting a straight answer to this question. Depending on who you ask, a 1" mixed flow drain (that is, one that's sucking air and water) can handle as little as 50 gph or as much as 500-600 gph "quietly." It's hard to put a real number on it because different plumbing arrangements will behave differently, and people have different meanings of the word "quietly." The only way to have a truly silent drain (and a drain that has the least CO2 offgassing) would be a Herbie or Bean style drain, i.e. one that includes a valved full siphon.
I was afraid of that answer haha. Ah well, the only way to know is to test it. I have been slowly coming around to the idea of drilling the tank. checked out a few youtube vids and feel rather good about it (knock on wood lol)

I'm going to shoot for around 10x turnover so around 400gph. For that flow, I plan on drilling 2 1.5 inch holes for the drain and setting it up as a herbie but I'm not sure how big the return pipe should be. I see a lot of people using loc line for their returns and they only go up to 3/4 inch

I also want to know if an internal overflow box is necessary. It doesn't seem to serve a purpose to me. Would someone please educate me on this?
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:03 PM   #26
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1.5" is overkill for 400 gph. To give you the scale of how overkill it is, I have a Herbie drain on a system that's pushing about 3,000 gph, and it's 1.5". And the valve is maybe 30% shut!

On a full siphon, you don't really want that much overkill - it means you'll be running with the adjustment valve almost all the way closed, which can make the system difficult to manage. If I wanted a Herbie that can handle 400 gph, I'd probably drill for 1" bulkheads but use bushings to bring the actual plumbing down to 3/4".

Return sizing really depends on the pump you choose. At 400gph, you don't have to go crazy, unless you've bought a way-undersized pump. I'd be totally happy with 3/4" return plumbing for that kind of flow in most cases, or even smaller.

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I also want to know if an internal overflow box is necessary. It doesn't seem to serve a purpose to me. Would someone please educate me on this?
Sorry, in what context? If you drill the bottom or side of the tank, you would typically then build an "internal" box around the holes and put the standpipes in it. In that arrangement, an internal box is definitely part of the design. If you're talking about a hang-on overflow, then the internal box is what sets the water level at a point higher than the entrance to the siphon tubes, so it needs to be there (to keep them from sucking air and breaking siphon).

If you're talking about drilling the back or side and then building an external box around the holes on the outside of the tank, and then drilling THAT box to put the standpipes in it, you still (probably) need an internal box to set the water height relative to the holes.

The only situation I can think of where you would not need an internal box would be if you notched the side or back panel of the aquarium and built an external box, at which point the water level in the tank is set by the notch - and you don't need the internal box.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:18 PM   #27
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If I wanted a Herbie that can handle 400 gph, I'd probably drill for 1" bulkheads but use bushings to bring the actual plumbing down to 3/4".

-----
Sorry, in what context? If you drill the bottom or side of the tank, you would typically then build an "internal" box around the holes and put the standpipes in it. In that arrangement, an internal box is definitely part of the design. If you're talking about a hang-on overflow, then the internal box is what sets the water level at a point higher than the entrance to the siphon tubes, so it needs to be there (to keep them from sucking air and breaking siphon)
Oh yes, I see how 1.5 is overkill for the siphon drain. Would you recommend a 1inch drain for the emergency as well?

Since this is my first time, do you happen to know of a really detailed guide on how to do plumbing? ie, which connector needs a slip and which needs a screw fitting, which ones have to be glued together, details like that? the closest I could find was a picture from beananimal.

The reason I asked if I needed an internal overflow box was because the herbie guide I saw said to put the siphon drain at least 6 inches below the emergency drain and the only box I found had a height of 5 inches from bulk reef supply. I figured if I just drilled 2 holes and attached pvc directly, I could achieve that.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:14 PM   #28
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Bulkheads - your choice slip vs. threaded. I like slip on the inside and threaded on the outside. Inside the box - use slip fittings and don't glue. None of these joints need to be 100% watertight, and doing it this way means you can pull it apart easily.

Outside the tank - it's really personal preference and will depend on what you want to use to get the water to the sump. You could thread/glue a nipple on and just use soft vinyl hose or corrugated hose. Or you could hard-plumb with PVC. Or use flex PVC. Whatever you choose, just be sure you're installing it appropriately for the given material.

You don't need 6 inches between the two drains - you really only need enough to keep the bottom drain submerged (not sucking air) while the top drain is still JUST above the water level. It's probably more like 2 inches in most setups (Assuming the siphon drain is a downward facing opening, i.e. an elbow pointing down). The extra height is nice because it gives you more wiggle room when adjusting the siphon valve but it is not a requirement.

The emergency should always be at least as big as the siphon - if the emergency is smaller, it might not be able to handle the full flow if the siphon gets plugged.

If you want to use a smaller box, it's typical to put the bulkheads in the side/back of the tank and build a small box around them. Then, you use a downturned elbow on the full siphon (so the opening is down near the bottom of the box) and an upturned elbow on the emergency (so the opening is up near the surface).
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:51 PM   #29
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I think I saw a thread where someone did the reverse light cycle but everyone was wondering why lol.
pH drops during the main tank's "night" cycle, when the lights are off. Having the sump lit during those hours prevents that. You can use something as simple as a clamp light with a spiral CFL.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:49 PM   #30
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You don't need 6 inches between the two drains - you really only need enough to keep the bottom drain submerged (not sucking air) while the top drain is still JUST above the water level. It's probably more like 2 inches in most setups (Assuming the siphon drain is a downward facing opening, i.e. an elbow pointing down). The extra height is nice because it gives you more wiggle room when adjusting the siphon valve but it is not a requirement.

The emergency should always be at least as big as the siphon - if the emergency is smaller, it might not be able to handle the full flow if the siphon gets plugged.
If the siphon drain is pointed downward, wouldn't that increase the risk of getting air in the upside down U part? Could I have the siphon intake pointed 90 degrees to the side?

I am tempted to put in a 1.5in for the return. It seems like it would fit in a 6x4x5 inch internal overflow box. Are there any unforeseen space issues I would run into? this is the box I was looking at but it seems all the places I look at use the same dimensions. http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/sumps-...rflow-box.html
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