120 Gallon ADA "like", ditched, Dutch style new pics 137 - Page 122
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > General Planted Tank Forums > Tank Journals


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-29-2013, 03:53 AM   #1816
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (256/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,374
Default

My toupe lifted up , the UG got dug up by the Botia I suspect, maybe the double trunk elephant nose.

Looks sort of funny. I'll have to trim it and replant.

New pics this weekend.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-29-2013, 06:38 AM   #1817
sarazorz
Algae Grower
 
sarazorz's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 97
Default

If I hadn't said so already, this tank is my favorite of all the tanks I've seen. Can't wait for more pics! I'm jealous of your reds. Mine aren't that red, even dosing iron and I've got high light. Maybe it just takes time

Gahhh I love this tank!!! wnkefoiwneofnkwoefnkoiu2093u84029u!!!
__________________
29g Low Tech Dutch
Nikon Pimp Club #102
Is there a "Hard Water Club"?
sarazorz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 12:58 PM   #1818
HD Blazingwolf
Planted Tank Guru
 
HD Blazingwolf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (8/100%)
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 4,907
Default

is ur main return pump mistin ur co2, or do you have a pre-mister pump to chop things up?
__________________
HD Blazingwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 02:31 PM   #1819
@marko@
Planted Tank Guru
 
@marko@'s Avatar
 
PTrader: (57/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: livingston, nj
Posts: 5,679
Default

speaking of misting, would you mind sharing your thoughts on misting vs reacting?
i was discussing it with a fellow NJAGC member the other day, as he uses a reactor, and doesnt like getting any mist. but i remember reading somewhere that a mist is actually better for the plants. this makes some intuitive sense to me, as dissolved CO2 isnt really CO2, but an equilibrium of CO2, H2CO3, HCO3--, and CO3--. i know some plants can use carbonates for carbon, but i dont THINK (please correct me if im wrong on this) all of them can. so 1 mL of mist is 1mL of CO2(g) in the tank, while 1mL of mist reacted is at least partially carbonic acid and carbonates which may not be bioavailable (though as plants remove the CO2, some of the other forms will convert following lechatliers principle).
so basically, im asking is there a benefit to misting with just a diffuser vs fully reacting in a reactor?
__________________
@marko@ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 04:06 PM   #1820
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (256/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,374
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HD Blazingwolf View Post
is ur main return pump mistin ur co2, or do you have a pre-mister pump to chop things up?
Main lining. Direct. But the return line is about 6ft long.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 04:22 PM   #1821
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (256/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,374
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by @marko@ View Post
speaking of misting, would you mind sharing your thoughts on misting vs reacting?
i was discussing it with a fellow NJAGC member the other day, as he uses a reactor, and doesnt like getting any mist. but i remember reading somewhere that a mist is actually better for the plants. this makes some intuitive sense to me, as dissolved CO2 isnt really CO2, but an equilibrium of CO2, H2CO3, HCO3--, and CO3--. i know some plants can use carbonates for carbon, but i dont THINK (please correct me if im wrong on this) all of them can. so 1 mL of mist is 1mL of CO2(g) in the tank, while 1mL of mist reacted is at least partially carbonic acid and carbonates which may not be bioavailable (though as plants remove the CO2, some of the other forms will convert following lechatliers principle).
so basically, im asking is there a benefit to misting with just a diffuser vs fully reacting in a reactor?
While many species can use indirect bicarbonate, they all prefer CO2 over that.

When light is high and CO2 is limiting, then they go after it, as you increase CO2[aq], then the difference in growth is the same in higher KH's vs lower KH's. At lower CO2 and lower KH's, then the plants will use both and a tank with more KH and low CO2 will have more total carbon available.

But this is due to the CO2 being limited, not so much pH or KH directly.

You can see the growth as measured by O2 production converges as you increase free CO2 in the water(pg 765):

http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/58/6/761.full.pdf

This happens at about 0.5 to 0.6 mM of CO2.
Which is about 20-30 ppm of CO2. But these are 3 very aggressive easy to grow weeds. Other species will need more CO2 to get to that point.


So at low CO2, more KH is good for growth(source of carbon).
At high free CO2, does not matter. You can see this from the graph in Figure 4.

Growth is the same and levels off(saturates). So at that point on, the CO2 is non limiting. Same in figure 6, after 400-500 umol of light, CO2 uptake stops increasing. So adding more light than this is not going to produce more growth.

At least for these weeds.

At the 0-100 umol light ranges, there are huge differences in growth rates however between those 4 weedy plants. At low light, the Hydrilla can really really growth much better and removes all the CO2, leaving only the KH left which takes more energy and work to assimilate.

So plants compete for CO2 and light. If those are non limiting, then you can test ferts.

Likewise, if the ferts and light are non limiting, then you can test CO2 or KH.
Same deal again with CO2/ferts being non limiting and then you vary light.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 05:36 PM   #1822
@marko@
Planted Tank Guru
 
@marko@'s Avatar
 
PTrader: (57/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: livingston, nj
Posts: 5,679
Default

excellent info. thanks tom.
__________________
@marko@ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 04:51 AM   #1823
HD Blazingwolf
Planted Tank Guru
 
HD Blazingwolf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (8/100%)
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 4,907
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
Main lining. Direct. But the return line is about 6ft long.
impressive. to get my co2 where i need, the bubbles come out larger than i think they should.. kinda wastefull.. ive tried a needlewheel pre return and it actually makes the bubbles larger, im at a loss besides looking into a post reactor of some kind
__________________
HD Blazingwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 05:21 AM   #1824
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (256/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,374
Default

You can run the CO2 a few different ways to get the best effect for your tank.

This takes tinkering really.

In my 70 Gal, the mist looks like crap really.

Not bad in this tank, but I have a large reactor chamber, a 4" x 20" clear housing, plenty big enough. I'll modify and dual venturi the line to purge the gas build up.

On my post Ph.D.(now that is finally completed) to do list.
Also, same for my 180 and 70 Gal.

I need to rescape my ADA 60p and the 70 Gal also.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 02:42 PM   #1825
HD Blazingwolf
Planted Tank Guru
 
HD Blazingwolf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (8/100%)
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 4,907
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
1.This takes tinkering really.

2. I'll modify and dual venturi the line to purge the gas build up.
1. phew, man im trying, i've got multiple pump,hose sizes and lengths, diffusers, reactors. etc
i've tried a needlewheel pre return into reactor that fed into the return and that sucked
. i'll try a longer coiled return line and see how that works. do you think pressure difference between 3/4 id or 1 in i.d. makes a difference?

2. how do you plant to accomplish this?
__________________
HD Blazingwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 05:54 PM   #1826
Ach1Ll3sH33L
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Ach1Ll3sH33L's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Socal
Posts: 338
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HD Blazingwolf View Post
impressive. to get my co2 where i need, the bubbles come out larger than i think they should.. kinda wastefull.. ive tried a needlewheel pre return and it actually makes the bubbles larger, im at a loss besides looking into a post reactor of some kind
I had a similar problem i solved this way. I still diffuse c02 into the sump pump which turns it into a mist, It then goes into a reactor that catches any large bubbles, but also lets some c02 build, and i still get a nice mist in the tank. Later in the photoperiod i have a nice mist in the tank and I can hear the reactor full of c02. Best of both worlds and more efficient for my setup.
__________________
Ach1Ll3sH33L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 05:54 PM   #1827
AaronT
Collectoritis Patient
 
AaronT's Avatar
 
PTrader: (201/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 2,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HD Blazingwolf View Post
impressive. to get my co2 where i need, the bubbles come out larger than i think they should.. kinda wastefull.. ive tried a needlewheel pre return and it actually makes the bubbles larger, im at a loss besides looking into a post reactor of some kind
Keep in mind that CO2 gas dissolves very quickly in water, like less than 5 seconds so the reason you may have seen bigger bubbles is because you were diffusing it even more efficiently and causing larger bubbles of atmospheric gas to form.

The CO2 mist that everyone talks about is only comprised of CO2 near the point of entry. Once the bubbles are on the other side of the tank they are no longer CO2, but atmospheric gasses.

The reason you don't see these using a reactor style difusser is because the atmospheric gases build up inside of the reactor chamber instead of being shot all around the tank.
__________________
In the D.C., Maryland, or NOVA area? Come check out The Greater Washington Aquatic Plants Association! www.gwapa.org

Last edited by AaronT; 03-30-2013 at 07:02 PM.. Reason: edit
AaronT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 07:14 PM   #1828
@marko@
Planted Tank Guru
 
@marko@'s Avatar
 
PTrader: (57/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: livingston, nj
Posts: 5,679
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronT View Post
Keep in mind that CO2 gas dissolves very quickly in water, like less than 5 seconds so the reason you may have seen bigger bubbles is because you were diffusing it even more efficiently and causing larger bubbles of atmospheric gas to form.

The CO2 mist that everyone talks about is only comprised of CO2 near the point of entry. Once the bubbles are on the other side of the tank they are no longer CO2, but atmospheric gasses.

The reason you don't see these using a reactor style difusser is because the atmospheric gases build up inside of the reactor chamber instead of being shot all around the tank.
so you are saying that when a micro bubble is shot out of my atomizer and out my filter output, that by the time it reaches the other end of the tank; that it is no longer CO2, the CO2 has dissolved and been replaced with N2 and O2? am i understanding you correctly?
why would that be the case? i can understand the CO2 dissolving, but why would N2 and O2 replace it in the bubble by coming out of solution (in fact, why would they come out of solution, they dont have a common ion or anything like that)? and why come out of solution into the bubble rather than on the surface?
this is the first time im hearing this and its very intruiging, please help me understand.
__________________
@marko@ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2013, 07:32 PM   #1829
AaronT
Collectoritis Patient
 
AaronT's Avatar
 
PTrader: (201/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 2,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by @marko@ View Post
so you are saying that when a micro bubble is shot out of my atomizer and out my filter output, that by the time it reaches the other end of the tank; that it is no longer CO2, the CO2 has dissolved and been replaced with N2 and O2? am i understanding you correctly?
why would that be the case? i can understand the CO2 dissolving, but why would N2 and O2 replace it in the bubble by coming out of solution (in fact, why would they come out of solution, they dont have a common ion or anything like that)? and why come out of solution into the bubble rather than on the surface?
this is the first time im hearing this and its very intruiging, please help me understand.
My understanding is that it has to do with saturation rates. CO2 saturates in water at way higher rates than some other gasses like O2. I'm not sure exactly what gasses are being pushed out, but yes, the tiny bubbles on the other side of the tank are likely not comprised of CO2.

The theory behind the mist working so well is that the bubbles disturb the natural barrier that the plants create around themselves from which they derive their nutrients. This is why good circulation is also important in an aquarium. It serves the same purpose.

I remember reading that Tom was speculating that this is also why plants seem to do so well after large water changes that briefly expose them to the air.
__________________
In the D.C., Maryland, or NOVA area? Come check out The Greater Washington Aquatic Plants Association! www.gwapa.org
AaronT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2013, 02:16 AM   #1830
jccaclimber
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (5/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 753
Default

It's been a few years since my last chem class, but that sounds suspicious, especially as I tend to believe that CO2 levels going up don't decrease O2 levels. I'm also pretty sure that the large bubbles in my reactor are in fact CO2. I suppose I could test this by capturing some and seeing what effect they have on a flame.
__________________
Always curious.
jccaclimber is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012