Low or no KH and low PH without a "crash"??

[Betowess]

There is a facinating discussion at APC about a novel approach to water parameters which considers the merits of a very low or nil KH (like zero or 1dKH) and very low pH - well below 6 to 5 pH - with no ill affect to the fish. And the plants love it! Basically using RO water and only dosing CaCl2 at 20ppm and Mg for GH. Here is the link.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...-ph-crash.html

I find the logic appealing in that many fish experience that type of water in SA. And running CO2 24/7 with an small airstone 24/7. And no reported fish deaths. The idea is that the pH will not crash, and the only danger is of CO2 poisoning, which the airstone prevents, assuming you don't OD the fish with CO2.

This is a very unorthodox idea and merits some serious discussion. Since I have this soft water, I could easily experiment with this approach. Obviously, it is not for brackish or hard water cichlids. I would really like to hear some feedback from some of the more experienced PT regulars.

[Wö£fëñxXx]

I have been trying to tell folks this for awhile in a gentle kind of way, I too use soft to very soft water KH of 0 to 2, pH of 6.5 to lower than I can measure. why? because plants grow very well in these parameter's,
I also keep various Tetra's, Ram's and shrimp in these parameters, I do not use an air stone but rather I use surface agitation with the lily pipe or spraybar.

No need to add all that crap that alot of folks add to thier water, like crushed coral, Ca, Mg, Seachem EQ, etc etc... the plant's or critter's simply do not need it.

Folks have plant problems or curling leave's they instantly "assume" it is Ca or Mg, it is not it is usually C02, if they will simply dose the sticky EI levels all that is left is light and C02. I have tested and proved this myself many times over.

Cardinal's, Ram's, Apisto's, Angel's can handle these very soft/acidic parameter's, Cherrie shrimp can handle it better than amano shrimp can also, I like cherries better than amano anyway.

Post count
I have been hearing folks here say for a while that one will have a pH crash if they do not buffer thier KH, I find it kind of humorous yet ignorant because it is not accurate information which is based on speculation and hearsay.

One still needs to approach with caution though because you can kill some critters fast if the understanding it not there, surface movement is key in this approach or an airstone.

I also think the way one diffuse's C02 will determine what kind of agitation they will need, for instance if one uses a reactor an airstone may give better results than using the lily pipe or spray bar for surface movement without off gassing the C02 to much based on the amount of light one is shooting into the tank... it depend's

I stopped using reactor's and now use glass diffuser's so the lily pipe or spray bar raised to the surface when lights out is all that is needed, which in turn kills any surface scum to boot.

I was wondering when this subject was going to be awaken.

[SuRje1976]

Hmm...looking forward to watching this develop. I had seen a few threads regarding this on the other forum and found it very interesting. Seems like it would be easier to maintain and there are testaments to its benefit for plants.

My KH out of the tap is less than 2, and up until recently, I'd reconstitute to about 5. I stopped adding any carbonate buffer 3 weeks ago with my water changes and I've got the KH to about 2.5. I lower the pH at each water change so I can maintain the same CO2 levels. It's at 6.1 now.

It is too soon for me to tell what the benefits are going to be, but (not surprisingly) my Tonina seem to be enjoying it. I'll post any additional observations as they are observed.

[ianiwane]

I too run a really low pH. I know people running pH's below 6 without any problems.

[aquamoon]

When I set up my first planted aquarium, the levels were very low. It was running for 3 years or so with no fish deaths, and the plants loved it.Then i started to find out more and more about this hobby. The more info that i had the more that I though this was wrong.

[Brilliant]

Originally Posted by Wö£fëñxXx

I have been trying to tell folks this for awhile in a gentle kind of way, I too use soft to very soft water KH of 0 to 2, pH of 6.5 to lower than I can measure. why? because plants grow very well in these parameter's,
I also keep various Tetra's, Ram's and shrimp in these parameters, I do not use an air stone but rather I use surface agitation with the lily pipe or spraybar.

No need to add all that crap that alot of folks add to thier water, like crushed coral, Ca, Mg, Seachem EQ, etc etc... the plant's or critter's simply do not need it.

Folks have plant problems or curling leave's they instantly "assume" it is Ca or Mg, it is not it is usually C02, if they will simply dose the sticky EI levels all that is left is light and C02. I have tested and proved this myself many times over.

Cardinal's, Ram's, Apisto's, Angel's can handle these very soft/acidic parameter's, Cherrie shrimp can handle it better than amano shrimp can also, I like cherries better than amano anyway.

Post count
I have been hearing folks here say for a while that one will have a pH crash if they do not buffer thier KH, I find it kind of humorous yet ignorant because it is not accurate information which is based on speculation and hearsay.

One still needs to approach with caution though because you can kill some critters fast if the understanding it not there, surface movement is key in this approach or an airstone.

I also think the way one diffuse's C02 will determine what kind of agitation they will need, for instance if one uses a reactor an airstone may give better results than using the lily pipe or spray bar for surface movement without off gassing the C02 to much based on the amount of light one is shooting into the tank... it depend's

I stopped using reactor's and now use glass diffuser's so the lily pipe or spray bar raised to the surface when lights out is all that is needed, which in turn kills any surface scum to boot.

I was wondering when this subject was going to be awaken.

Hmm perhaps thats why your plants are growing so nicely for me

If\when I tell someone about my water parameters they always tell me I am in danger. So I dont bother to argue. I find it funny however that my way of doing things closely matches this debated topic.

[fresh_lynny]

My KH is near RO out of the tap and I bicarb adjust to 3 and keep the pH @ 6.3. My amanos are fine and my fish are great. The only thing I had to do is put the Olive Nerites on a rotation. When I see pitting in the shells, I move them to my large outdoor water feature fo summer fun. I have 2 titanium heaters in the thing so year round this can be an option. Aside from that critters are fine, happy and spawning. I am still playing with my PO4 issues, but other than that, I added a small pump for agitation, and have an airstone click on when my lunars go on at night.

[Betowess]

Not to diverge on a tangent, but these type of water parameters makes using ADA aqua soils a possibilty for us blessed with very soft water. Before, I thought too bad, I can't use the ADA substrates as it softens the water. Perhaps this helps explain why the Amano's soil substrate grows plants so well. They are happier in that low KH/pH environ.

Ps... thanks for the feedback Craig and others!

[endparenthesis]

Wow, my KH of 2 is looking pretty good now.

[Hoppy]

What has happened is that someone, who is a trusted aquatic plant grower, has said that we must keep our KH above 3 to avoid pH crash. That was then repeated by others as the rule of the game. Others, like me came along, read all of the advice we could find, including that we had to keep our KH above 3, so we assumed it to be the gospel and began telling others the same thing. This is possibly like the gospel that phosphate causes algae.

This is a fascinating hobby! If you take a 6 month sabbatical and come back to these forums you find that all that you had previously learned is now wrong! In a few months I expect to learn that lots of light is wrong and we all need to add intense blue light to avoid algae.

[Betowess]

Originally Posted by Hoppy

What has happened is that someone, who is a trusted aquatic plant grower, has said that we must keep our KH above 3 to avoid pH crash. That was then repeated by others as the rule of the game. Others, like me came along, read all of the advice we could find, including that we had to keep our KH above 3, so we assumed it to be the gospel and began telling others the same thing. This is possibly like the gospel that phosphate causes algae.

Hoppy, I was thinking the same thing might have caused this long held notion of 3 dKH to prevent pH crashes. Good point.

On the other hand, I think my thread algae was a believer... in phosphates cause algae. It liked any phosphates. Forgive my hijacking my own thread. I have sinned. LOL

[fresh_lynny]

well I am going to officially do this experiement. I will not adjust my kH so it will be like 1-2 and I will keep my pH at about 6-6.2. In addition I will try to run my airstone for the critters and dose EI regardless of what my real crappy test kits say my levels are. I guess I will keep an eye on my Amanos, I have 2 adults, and see how they act in the process. I will keep you posted as to what I see. Whenever someone told me I had to adjust my kH or I would have a pH crash, I thought...that is utter BS. Makes no sense. In my belief, CO2 will only get your pH down so much, so how far down would it crash to? I believe 5.5 is about the limit, and with surface agitation and/or airstone, this shouldn't be a big deal, just remove your snails so their shells don't erode. I moved mine to my outdoor "pond"
Anyway, I will keep you guys posted. I will do this over the next 2-3 weeks and post what I see.

[Hoppy]

I wish more of us would take the time to test things like this. In my case I just quit adding bicarbonate of soda when I change water, leaving me with KH around 2. I changed nothing else. After a week, the tank and inhabitants look the same. But, I so rarely measure pH I don't know what it is now. (Great scientist huh? Do the experiment, but don't take data.)

[SuRje1976]

Hoppy, I have started to think over the past couple of weeks that this HAS been tested and proven. I am currently "testing" this in my tank, but not really to see if it will work, but more to CONVINCE MYSELF that it will. I am taking a semi-scientific approach, and I have not observed any negative affects thus far. I cannot really imagine that I will. This approach makes sense to me and I don't keep livestock that will are intolerant to low pH/KH.

I am REALLY looking forward to seeing how this pans out for me, for you, for Lynn and anyone else that chooses to "test" this. I definately intend to post EVERYTHING I observe.

[Wasserpest]

I have been hearing folks here say for a while that one will have a pH crash if they do not buffer thier KH, I find it kind of humorous yet ignorant because it is not accurate information which is based on speculation and hearsay.

I find the above statements not humorous or ignorant, but too generalized. Just like the statement that you need a certain kH for a certain purpose - no, it all depends. For someone who has been into planted tanks for years and who is familiar with water chemistry, it might seem ignorant to talk about pH crashes, but someone who is just getting into this hobby (and there are a few on this site) CO2 is still somewhat of a mystery, and with no idea what pH and kH stands for and surface agitation means, it is a very different thing.

PH crashes are very real. If you do some searching you will find a lot of "sad days" and "near disasters" and stuff that would have been avoidable if the water was buffered. CO2 the culprit, pH the culprit, it doesn't really matter, we are injecting CO2 which lowers the pH, no point in saying it is this and not that what eventually kills.

Many aquarium plants grow better in soft water. Nothing new. The most beautiful tanks I know feature low levels of 1 to 3 dkH.

(WP who is pissed because he can't grow Tonina in 10 dkH tap water)