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Old 03-04-2013, 11:17 PM   #31
MABJ
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The suffering of animals, and other travesties


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Originally Posted by thedudeabides View Post
Myself, I believe in reincarnation and I think to myself I could one day be that fish and I would hope that if that happens I'm taken good care of.
An interesting way to look at it.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:48 PM   #32
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You are all here. You are trying to educate yourselves and share with others your knowledge and experience in fish keeping!! =) Thank you so much, as I have learned so much. I think everyone who owns any pet should help share information about caring for the specific needs of that pet with others who are thinking of getting one. Even different breeds of dogs have a wide range of different needs. My chow mix loves to go for a walk or lounge at my feet, but refuses to eat when not by my side. A lab needs lots of exercise, but will probably take food from anyone. Different needs. Everyone should research before the purchase of any pet, but many pet stores are afraid to tell people this and I have found their pamphlets lacking in basic instruction. Encourage people to ask questions and share what you know. What is true abuse... I have worked rehabilitating horses. One horse would tremble, just shake and shiver, the minute I would get in the saddle as if anything it did would be met with a beating. This horse was terrified for months even with the most gentle consistent care. Animal abuse if very real, but is not the same as lacking knowledge of an animals needs.

Last edited by lotuslullaby; 03-04-2013 at 11:50 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:16 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkCobra View Post
The bettas have excellent water quality, they're active, and enjoy playing with the plants and other toys we give them.
What "toys" did you give them? A stimulating environment is good for the fish's well being.

As shown in the book
Fish Behavior in the Aquarium and in the Wild Fish Behavior in the Aquarium and in the Wild
, fish has much more intelligence than what we are willing to give them credit for.

The way goldfish respond to pain shows that these animals do experience pain consciously.

Even a little zebrafish can experience fear. Scientists have identified in zebrafish the brain structure (habenula) responsible for that emotion.

Fish have emotion.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:34 AM   #34
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Default Re: The suffering of animals, and other travesties

I think what also needs to be looked at is how domesticated the animal is and how removed from their original "natural instincts" they are.

Using horses as an example because I work with them professionally, there are some horse that are in a stall 24/7 except when being ridden or hand walked around and they are not stressed at all. In fact when they are put out in paddocks they can't handle it and show extremes signs of stress like fence pacing. We even had a mare that would jump her fence to get back in her stall. While there are other horses who can't be in a stall at all and will completely panic.

So what I'm trying to say is that everything needs to be looked at individually. And all animals cannot be compared. As there are huge differences. Such as prey vs predator, herd versus solitary etc
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:35 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zdnet View Post
What "toys" did you give them? A stimulating environment is good for the fish's well being.
They consider the plants toys, for one. They play with the mini Marimos like balls. We rearrange the other plants frequently, every time we do they get excited. Some are in little ceramic pots, that aren't needed for the plants, but the bettas play peek-a-boo in. A couple of days ago they each got a small ramshorn snail, which they each interacted with in a different way; though none of the interactions resulted in the snails surviving.

Almost every day we give them attention and do something different. Sometimes that includes literal toys:



This betta spent hours staring down and challenging one little army man, then another.

Definitely intelligent as far as fish go, and worth providing a stimulating environment.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:29 AM   #36
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I was at a hobby/craft store this afternoon and saw a rack of bettas that were used for the marble/fake plant vase decorations. It saddened me to think that 90+% of those that were on the shelf were going to live out their numbered days in terrible conditions with people banging on the vase and having to survive in stagnant dirty water.

I bet people would have a different outlook on them if we subjected beautiful people to the same conditions just because they were "pretty".
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:34 AM   #37
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This is an interesting topic. With all due respect to Nirvana and Kurt Cobain, I do feel fish have feelings and so we should provide the best possible home for them.

Now the question then becomes what is their best home? All the fish have origins in the wild and so the common sense answer would be to replicate their natural living conditions as best as possible. However, it's also clear that people breed fish (especially fresh water fish)... yes some are naturally caught but I'd say the majority are farmed. So perhaps a lot of these fish only know the caring under humans and those conditions will most likely not replicate nature.

But on to the other topic of judging people based on how they treat their fish. From children, to dogs, to cats, to fish, it's probably best not to judge other people's way of raising them. We can have our own opinion, but at the end of the day we can only control ourselves. If you hate the way fish are being treated you can get super rich and buy as many as you can in your ideal environment.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:37 AM   #38
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OK. Let's stop arguing and realize the funniest part of this thread. It has some of the longest posts I've ever seen, except for speedie's RAOKs.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:23 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FisheriesOmen View Post
Taxonomy. That's the distinction. No one is making up excuses when they say they are different because Physically, Mentally and Scientifically they are different. That's all there is to it.

I don't know why you're trying to argue against whether a dog and fish are different or not, because no matter what way you put it, they are indeed different and are not comparable.
You do not think it is an appropriate comparison to say that keeping a goldfish in a bowl is the same thing as keeping a dog in a closet. Your sole explanation for this position has been "a fish is not a dog." In the most concrete of terms, that statement is true; but in terms of the discussion, it doesn't say anything. We know what fish need to be healthy. We know what dogs need to be healthy. I am interested to know what, if any, rationale you can provide for saying it is okay to treat a fish differently from a dog in terms of providing it with adequate living conditions. Under what logic is it okay to meet the needs of one, but not the other?

I haven't actually taken a position on the matter. I am not arguing with you. I am not trying to bait you into a "gotcha!" moment. I am just interested in your reasoning.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:58 AM   #40
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This is a very interesting discussion, and I don't really know any answers. I do have a few ideas: If you keep a betta in a one quart container of perfect water, is that a problem? I don't think they feel claustrophobic like we might project anthropomorphically upon them. On a similar theme, I have adopted 3 wonderful greyhounds in my life; they spend 16 hours a day in a 3-foot cage, let out only for exercise. When I get them, they seem to be happy, well adjusted dogs.
I don't think we really know when animals are happy. We can guess based on behavior. I do know we project and imagine a lot about how they feel, if they really feel, and to what extent.
To the original question, my best answer is that water quality is more important than water volume assuming a minimal ratio of animal to water.
Just my 2 cents
Thanks,
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:11 AM   #41
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Thumbs up Playful Betta

I agree with you DarkCobra, that bettas are very playful and curious. Our betta loves his betta log, plants, and dancing in and out of the bubbles from the bubbler. I even have a photo of him checking out a dragon decoration in the QT tank. I think animals have lots of ways to show if they are content, happy, stressed, or upset.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:39 AM   #42
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It seems like the majority of people who have chimed in are of one similar opinion, and one that I probably did not expect. Maybe I was underestimating the stereotypical user on a site such as this. People would only be here if they were willing to spend the time and money in order to create a so called "perfect" environment for the creatures in their possession. Overall I am pleased that many have suggested that it would be better to approach this subject in an educating sort of way, rather than a flame-throwing attitude.

I am going to sign off on the discussion due to the direction it is taking. I feel that my opinion in the matters of animal rights would be met with overwhelming opposition on this website. I don't mind being offended or opposed, but it's best not to open that can of worms right here.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:49 PM   #43
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Cruel or not cruel? It's 1.1 gallons and I don't think any heater or filter. Just a AA clock.

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Old 03-06-2013, 11:50 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FisheriesOmen View Post
Who said anything about the fish showing signs of stress? Humans are stressed nearly 24/7 in our modern culture, what's the difference.

I love how you cherry-picked that one sentence.
Human's can speak,voice their displeasure,get up and leave or avoid uncomfortable enviornment if they so choose.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:55 PM   #45
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There is no doubt that fish have pain receptors.
They also have motivational centres.
But do they suffer or are they basically robots? We don't know.
I don't believe they have cerebral consciousness.


I take the Buddhist approach, just give due respect for a fellow earthling.
I also love steamed fish with garlic and chilli.
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