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Old 03-04-2013, 12:33 PM   #16
roadmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FisheriesOmen View Post
This is the problem right here. People don't understand that fish ARE NOT dogs, fish ARE NOT horses, and fish are most certainly NOT human beings. Don't compare two un-related animals to the same scenario.
Does not matter in my view.Dog,cat,horse,or tropical fishes.
If and when,, someone takes on the responsibility to care for the afore mentioned,then they should do right by the creature.
Recall many post's where folk's gass their fishes with CO2,keep unsuitable fishes with other fishes requiring completely different water chemistry, different aggression level's,keep fishes in tiny glass boxes ,bowl's , feed fishes improper diet's,poor maint,etc,etc,.
Is almost humorous to see,/hear how defensive they become when told they aren't doing the fishes that have no say,,,any favor's.
I take particular exception to those who keep Betta's in wholly unsuitable enviornment's for their long term health,, but yet profess their love for these fish, which they often give cute little names to and many of their post's are punctuated with a long RIP list of the fishes that have died under their care.
Recall a popular Discus forum,where great pain's are taken to provide near sterile enviornment for the Discus,excellent food's,maint, but these same folk's think nothing of subjecting other fishes to temperatures unsuited for their long term survival and place them in near oven like temp's without a thought and become quite defensive when informed that they aren't doing the fish any favor's.
I personally have broken car window's on two occasion's,,Once to provide relief for a child ,the other for a dog.These folk's too,, became defensive.
Go figure.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:52 PM   #17
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Gnomecatcher: I really appreciate the reasoned way you approached this topic. You write like you have a philosophy degree. Keep going!

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I personally have broken car window's on two occasion's,,Once to provide relief for a child ,the other for a dog.These folk's too,, became defensive.
Go figure.
A person of action! I would enjoy hearing a more detailed account of their reactions.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:27 PM   #18
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What assumptions do you make to come to these conclusions? What are the criteria you use to separate them? Is it okay to raise an Oscar in a 2.5 gallon tank? Why or why not?
Now you're just dramatizing. Oscars would out grow a 2.5 and that is the equivalent of giving a lab a kennel half it's size. If it is physically incapable of surviving in there than that's a different topic. The goldfish has a long time to grow and you're assuming nothing would change on the owners behalf when it grows.

Tell me why you say a goldfish is in pain, why it doesn't like the situation.
The goldfish doesn't think it is cruel, he is just trying to survive to pass on its genes like all animals. You could say lakes that dwindle in the dry season in Africa is cruel. But do animals think of it that way? No. It's human emotions that personify everything that they see fit.

Not allowing an animal to reproduce could be considered just as cruel as its environment it's in. Since, in nature, that's the main goal of life.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:37 PM   #19
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If you can't provide your pets with good living conditions don't buy one. That's how simple it is.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:51 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by FisheriesOmen View Post
Tell me why you say a goldfish is in pain, why it doesn't like the situation.
I never said "pain," I said "stress." "Pain" is subjective. However, there are plenty of well-established signs of stress in aquarium fish. If you don't know them, then you have homework to do.
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:18 PM   #21
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all life deserves respect!



i would have liberated it as well... and also probably shoved a human head through the aquarium glass. But thats just me....
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:43 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Sluggo View Post
I never said "pain," I said "stress." "Pain" is subjective. However, there are plenty of well-established signs of stress in aquarium fish. If you don't know them, then you have homework to do.
Who said anything about the fish showing signs of stress? Humans are stressed nearly 24/7 in our modern culture, what's the difference.

I love how you cherry-picked that one sentence.
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Old 03-04-2013, 05:34 PM   #23
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DarkCobra: I realize that not everyone who supports animal rights falls under this extreme, and in fact I believe that the specific individual you mentioned is not to be compared with most people who believe in animal rights. What he stands for is animal freedom and separation, and it chills me to think that such freedoms would be put before that of human freedoms. I am a vegetarian, but I would not blink an eye if someone ate a steak in front of me. I believe everyone deserves the right to choose.

Sluggo: I agree with you, there is no need to talk of extremist values in order to understand the harm. However, the question you pose, whether or not someone is okay with such treatment, is at the heart of the issue. What if someone was okay with it? How would you respond to them? With anger? Violence?

FisheriesOmen: I tend to agree with everything you have said. I think it follows reasonable and cogent logic. However, pain is not easily measurable, so let's not fall into a trap by arguing about things that we have no solid evidence on.

Over all, this conversation has taken a turn that I did not expect, and I would like to bring it back to the original complicated issue that I was hoping to discuss, and that is the treatment of people who do not share our own values. So again, what if someone did not share your opinions? Is that any reason to cause an uproar? Not many in our society believe that morals are subjective, so let's not have that discussion. I often find myself unreasonably agitated whenever people tout higher moral ground that others, and issue is with the person's abuse of their fellow humans, not with the morals themselves.

The girl I described in the original post used very abusive language, and even suggested that people who cannot keep a goldfish properly are somehow sub-human and should not be born. The fellow that DarkCobra described suggested that veganism be made LAW, and human rights ought to be constricted if they interfere with animal rights. This, I feel, is unacceptable.

I had a betta when I was a kid. I stuck him in 1 gallon, no plants, hardly remembered to feed him (although I did a pretty good job of cleaning out his tank weekly). I also had a dog (recently deceased due to old age, 14 is a pretty good age for a Lab!). I would do anything for that dog. She developed health problems, and for those she go the best care possible, as any beloved family member would receive. I am a long time vegetarian, for reasons I don't feel the need to justify. I don't even kill the spiders in my home, I just carry them outdoors. How can you call me cruel for my treatment of my betta? People are neither kind nor cruel because of any one decision that they make, whether or not that decision was made in ignorance or with adequate knowledge.

Newms: Thanks, that really means a lot to me! I consider myself a hobbyist philosopher. I would love to get my degree in philosophy, but I'm afraid I'm a little preoccupied with biochemistry.
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:32 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Gnomecatcher View Post
Sluggo: I agree with you, there is no need to talk of extremist values in order to understand the harm. However, the question you pose, whether or not someone is okay with such treatment, is at the heart of the issue. What if someone was okay with it? How would you respond to them?
In some cases, my response is to explain objectively the harm that is being done. If you are okay with it, my response might be to ask why. Then my response is to do what I have done here: to challenge the assumptions that underlie your answers.

I have two rescue dogs who were abandoned on the side of the road as puppies. I can't imagine doing that, but I pluck nuisance snails out of my fish tank and flush them down the toilet. I don't make any truth-claims such as "a snail is not the same thing as a dog" to justify that difference. I am comfortable with the ambiguity. When people make categorical statements like "a fish is not a dog," I want to know what criteria are being used to make that distinction. Some people employ all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify why they are outraged at puppy mills, but okay with keeping a Betta in a shot glass. I am more interested in that thought process than I am in the actual treatment of the dogs or the fish.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnomecatcher View Post
I had a betta when I was a kid. I stuck him in 1 gallon, no plants, hardly remembered to feed him (although I did a pretty good job of cleaning out his tank weekly). .........How can you call me cruel for my treatment of my betta?
"Cruel" is emotionally-laden. It implies a level of intent, where "neglect" and "mistreatment" do not.

Last edited by Sluggo; 03-04-2013 at 06:47 PM.. Reason: just because
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:34 PM   #25
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Last edited by Delexboarfoot; 03-04-2013 at 06:57 PM.. Reason: should have read rest of thread before opening mouth
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:17 PM   #26
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Just like someone said before, if you don't care to learn how to properly care for an animal you voluntarily keep, then you should re-think your choice of pet.

Not everybody who owns a cat or dog can't afford to give it the best medical care, but does that mean they're neglecting the animal if they can't take it to the vet for regular checkups? I think if you are loving and caring to the best of your abilities, then that is usually good enough. Even better if you educate yourself to continue providing better care if at all possible. I'm the kind of person that instead of getting angry about "mistreatment" I try to educate the person as to what they're doing wrong and hopefully they are receptive about my attempts to educate. And I try to educate myself as much as I can which is a big reason why I'm around here so much. Education.

A couple examples. My daughter wanted a turtle for Christmas. I looked around and found one on craigslist. Once I found the one I was going to get, I took it upon myself to learn about the animal and how to best care for it. When I got the turtle, it was obvious it was neglected, even though I had never owned a turtle myself. Now, it has a very good home, diet and is healthy (confirmed by a vet) and by all appearances is happy.

When I was new to fish keeping, I bought a variety of fish that due to a newbie mistake, weren't compatible with eachother. Even though I really wanted to keep them all together, I realized that it wouldn't work and returned the offending fish back to the LFS.

Not trying to sound arrogant or self righteous, rather just giving examples that I understand the topic at hand and fully agree with the OP. I hope this discussion continues to be productive and not turn into a flame war that gets locked.
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:57 PM   #27
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I think this is a good discussion so long as it remains civil! I tend to agree with Sluggo on his comments.

That said, here is my opinion and experience. I own two cats, three rats, a snake, and am working on my aquarium, previously I had a saltwater tank.

For the cats, rats, and snake, I provide for them to the best of my ability, and try to cater to the needs of the species because I made the decision to own and be responsible for the pet. Once my aquarium is going, I will be making every effort to provide for the specific needs of the fish, based on my knowledge and understanding.

Now if for any of my pets, I am unaware of a specific need when I first get them, and then find out about it at a later time, and don't, within a reasonable time rectify the situation, I feel like that would be knowingly neglecting them.

For instance, when I got my corn snake, I bought a simple pre made "snake kit" for her, and set it up. Later I went online, and found that corn snakes benefit better from having an under tank heater on a thermostat which would keep a portion of the tank at a specific reasonable temperature for them. Within a week of the snake purchase, I had attached my nice new under tank heater and plugged it into my new thermostat. I took care of the needs of my pet, because that is the logical, reasonable thing to do.

I fully understand making "impulse buys" and starting out all wrong for a pet, just not knowing they have a higher need... But once I find out I'm doing something wrong for them, I fix it. I feel anyone should...

When someone else owns a pet, if I see they are neglecting the needs of that pet, I may try to politely point it out to them, but ultimately where they go from there is up to them. I would never try to liberate someone else's property because I feel they are not owning it right hehe, however I wouldn't just sit quietly either.

Hope that makes sense.
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:25 PM   #28
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Quote:
When people make categorical statements like "a fish is not a dog," I want to know what criteria are being used to make that distinction. Some people employ all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify why they are outraged at puppy mills, but okay with keeping a Betta in a shot glass. I am more interested in that thought process than I am in the actual treatment of the dogs or the fish.
Taxonomy. That's the distinction. No one is making up excuses when they say they are different because Physically, Mentally and Scientifically they are different. That's all there is to it.

I don't know why you're trying to argue against whether a dog and fish are different or not, because no matter what way you put it, they are indeed different and are not comparable.
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Old 03-04-2013, 10:03 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnomecatcher View Post
So again, what if someone did not share your opinions? Is that any reason to cause an uproar? Not many in our society believe that morals are subjective, so let's not have that discussion. I often find myself unreasonably agitated whenever people tout higher moral ground that others, and issue is with the person's abuse of their fellow humans, not with the morals themselves.
I don't know much about other animals, so I try not to liken the furry type to our aquatic friends, but I will say I try to avoid those who don't share my opinions.

As I see it (if we're discussing Internet posts in general) there are three types of posts. One which touts what one is doing against the grain; be it keeping a Goldie in a five gallon or the like. One which is requesting help, as the person can tell the fish/shrimp are in distress for some reason. One which is proud of what one has and is asking for opinions or critiques.

I would reserve the word cruel for the first situation in some cases, but not all. I've seen just so many posts which claim they don't care what others say, they have something that works. Most of the time it is a fish in something far too small. Cruel is reserved for someone who thinks it is OK to not acknowledge countless people who offer personal experience and still continue with an act. It is cruel because at this point, I believe there is intent and neglect behind the actions.

One note to that is there are different levels of cruelty. I don't think a betta in a one gallon is cruel, but I do think a green spotted puffer in a one gallon tank is cruel.

A large part of the issue is the authorization to sell fish. You need none. I feel each person who sells another living thing should need some credentials to do it. That way all three of the posts I described would be sharply decreased.

In the other two situations I've encountered, I will try my best to help inform and guide, as I know I have something to offer people in distress. These are people who are reaching out to change what they're doing, and I try to be as blunt and helpful as possible. Sugar coating it would do nothing.

I always try to explain that I've made mistakes myself, and it is what makes me a responsible keeper of fish/shrimp.

This discussion is always an issue. It gets people heated up, as it is easy to get off track.
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Old 03-04-2013, 10:12 PM   #30
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Regardless of morals going into the hobby justifying doing something the wrong way is not a good way to go about it. If one of your goals is not to make your inhabitants happy you are missing a big piece of the puzzle.

Myself, I believe in reincarnation and I think to myself I could one day be that fish and I would hope that if that happens I'm taken good care of.
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