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Old 02-21-2013, 12:37 AM   #31
sbarbee54
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I breed the following
Neos
PFR/Fire Reds
Yellow Fires/Yellows
Blue Velvets

All are in PH 7-7.1 GH 5-6 KH1-2 TDS 200

Tigers
OEBT
BTOE
RED TIGER

All are in PH 7-7.1 GH 5-6 KH1-2 TDS 200

Cardinia
CRS/CRS PRL
CBS
Snow Whites

PH 5.8-6.0 GH 5 KH0-1 TDS 150-160

TB & hybrids
I have everything But the high crowns no entry..... and no Jellies want one soon! So I have BB GH Extremes Pandas, shadows, 1 bar 2 bars... Hybrids F1 and on

PH 5.8-6.0 GH 5 KH0-1 TDS 150-160


Other than my attach of Dragon fly nymphs in the one TB tank, I breed these all with good results in different soils and different setups. Keeping the water stable and clean is the key.

Substrate used

NEOS - FSS, Pool filter sand.
CRS/CBS/Snow Whites - Amazonia, Akadama
Hybrids/TB's - Amazonia, Africana, Akadama

I have equal amount of survival in all. I keep a PH probe in all my tanks, I check TDS and GH and KH daily..... I top off RO only. I remineralize to the same TDS every time. I take exactly 20% out weekly on water changes. I have a set feeding schedule on what they get and when.

Everyone has to find what works for them, that is a quote Nick told me when i started and it is so true. What works for me may not work for you. What works for nick may not work for me...



I do this to with no change

I use cuttlebone in almost all my shrimp tank with no problems or rise in the gh...
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:51 AM   #32
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^^^ this, and especially the part, on what works for you, won't work for others. There are too many variables to factor in.

I've bred CRS in 5.0pH with good results and I'm doing it now with no active substrate and 7.0pH with great results, but it doesn't mean anyone else can/will. A lot of it comes down to keeping things stable, whatever your params are and knowing shrimp a bit. I've had time where param's were perfect but all my shrimp were frozen in the tank and not moving like little white and red statues. Didn't realized when I was working on the tank, I unplugged my air pump and didn't plug it back in, a few days of no O2 movement in the water and they froze in place. Got the air stone going, back to normal in a day. Seeing something like that and freaking out, changing 80% of my water, adding this additive and that and more of this and this stuff from that site and some tonic and some other powders would have probably caused a lot of deaths and harmed them more than simply plugging the air back in.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:00 AM   #33
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@OP

I have a mix of Amanos, RCS, Rili, some Atrax(some wild shrimp I got from a LFS) and montain shrimp. Almost 50 of them in a 40L net tank.

I'm not too experienced with shrimp but as far as water chemistry goes, pH is irrelevant.

Read up on osmotic pressure and osmoregulation specially for inverts. TDS has more to do with success in keeping shrimp than pH.

Do small (1%-2%) water changes twice a week. It is better to do a small water change but often than a monthly large one.

Oversize filtration. On this 40L tank I have a Tetra EX700 canister which is designed for 100L-250L tanks. The canister is filled with Eheim SubstratPro which is close to Seachem Matrix in bio filtering performance. Use almond leaves, alder cones, oak leaves.

I pour some dried loose Stinging Nettle tea from the nature shop and let it float on the water surface, eventually it sinks. I do the same with walnut dried leaves tea. I use tea since it's not available fresh.

The invert diet is important as it can compensate improper water parameters to some degree. I found that high Calcium food is better than high dissolved Calcium levels in the water.

Get your hands on montomorillonite clay. Plaster of Paris is also a good source of Calcium. These two you can mix in a homemade concoction and provides enough Calcium. My shrimp are molting like crazy without a water change or some other change in the water parameters. I change 6-7L per week.

LE: Pictures of my tank.

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Old 02-21-2013, 02:34 PM   #34
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I agree to most of what you say besides this

"Read up on osmotic pressure and osmoregulation specially for inverts. TDS has more to do with success in keeping shrimp than pH"

PH is huge! Especially with Tigers, CRS/CBS and Taiwan bees. Too high or to low could be the difference in living let alone breeding
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:20 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarbee54 View Post
I agree to most of what you say besides this

"Read up on osmotic pressure and osmoregulation specially for inverts. TDS has more to do with success in keeping shrimp than pH"

PH is huge! Especially with Tigers, CRS/CBS and Taiwan bees. Too high or to low could be the difference in living let alone breeding
I agree and disagree. lol. I think a lot of shrimp have become a lot more hardy in the past few years and breeders all over the world keep them in a variety of conditions. I've spoken with a few breeders in places like eastern europe where active substrate is almost non-existent, and while their tap water is very pure, or they have RO it's a high pH. They will have like 1 active substrate tank to make a low pH water from, import crs/tb/tigers, whatever from Germany/Japan/Taiwan that come from a low pH tank and spend 6 months acclimating them to a higher pH yet same mineral content and have crs/tigers and even TB's breeding in a 8pH water yet everything else is the same mineral wise. Is this for the light hearted? No. a 6 month acclimation of careful mixing of waters to know exactly how the pH will increase each water change and keeping it consistent is hard, yet they do it out of necessity. Once done though, they have a line of shrimp that is used to that water. The biggest part is getting babies born. As Liam even said a little while ago, shrimp born in a water outside their range are much better adapted to that water.

There are more and more stories of people keeping and breeding CRS in tap water or water with params with that the "norm" says they HAVE to be. There is a member of my local shrimp club who has a 5gal bare bottom tank with tap water and CRS breeding in it. Not the greatest baby yields, but those babies will probably have better yields and their babies better yields. A few years ago there was a member on our local aquarium forum who did the same thing and was selling just pure tap water CRS that were breeding hardy and like crazy that he was selling them and selling out all the time.

When I moved an adult population of neo's to my crs tank, from 8pH to 5pH, did they all die. Yup. When I moved a clump of moss full of new born neo's from a 8pH tank to a 5pH tank, did they live. Yup. The babies were probably only a few hours old and I just grabbed a huge handful of moss and moved it and they grew up fine in the water as they didn't know any better.

I've already moved my CRS stock from a 5pH water to a 7pH water and breeding is out of control, babies everywhere, berries almost back to back. Am I going to try and setup a small tank and do a long acclimation to my 8pH tap water with some of that stock. Yup.

Two years ago we were told TB's needed like a 5pH water and maybe at that time they did. Now they are as hardy as CRS and people are keeping them in a 6.5-6.8 water with breeding.

---------------------

Is it better to match the params of the shrimp keepers who you're getting from? Yes.

Do shrimp do better in the general conditions usually given? Yes.

Are these hard fast rules that have to be followed and any deviation from that will result in death? No

Is active substrate/low ph usually the best for beginners keeping crs/tb. Yes

Is there exceptions to the norm and can those norms be broken. Yes


I always love/hate threads like this because it opens up great debate that challenges the norm, but I always try and caution new keepers that it may not be the best way to go. I tried to stress that in my thread/journal about not using active substrate anymore, don't dump $500 worth of shrimp in a tank like I did and blame me if it goes wrong. I took the risk, did my best for a very slow acclimation into a very cycled 3 month old tank and am having good success but as with anything, YMMV and sticking with the norm for beginners is the best place to start, but it's not the end all-be all of keeping.
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:31 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarbee54 View Post
I agree to most of what you say besides this

"Read up on osmotic pressure and osmoregulation specially for inverts. TDS has more to do with success in keeping shrimp than pH"

PH is huge! Especially with Tigers, CRS/CBS and Taiwan bees. Too high or to low could be the difference in living let alone breeding
I would love a detailed explanation on this. I know what pH is and what it does but it will help me a great deal to understand how it affects shrimp.
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:03 PM   #37
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I agree that people can keep them in high PH now, but look you even said it, "Two years ago we were told TB's needed like a 5pH water and maybe at that time they did. Now they are as hardy as CRS and people are keeping them in a 6.5-6.8 water with breeding."

it took the pro's in Germany/Taiwan/Japan to get them to acclimate to higher conditions. I am sorry I have seen it, where I did a PH water change on a baby farming tank that sits at 6.0 and it changed to a 7.0 on a drip acclimation of 12 hours and all the CRS/CBS/Hybrids died. Best is to match original source I agree. But to make a big PH swing from what they or their parents were born in is asking to waste a bunch of money. I don’t know about you but I don’t like to play roulette with high $$$ shrimp... I have spoken to some breeds in Germany and Denmark and as well as a well known importer in Japan, and they still recommend ideal conditions 7.0 and below down to 5.4 with tds from 140-225.... GH5-6 KH0-1

I have as well kept tigers in a PH of 6.0 and had no luck breeding them at all and baby die offs like crazy... Moved to 7, and that is near where my source was keeping them and now I have great survival and breeding with Red tiger Btoe and oebt.

Well I started in TB about 4 months ago, and I am have great success with them and breeding and survival(Minus dragon fly nymphs and tank tear downs because of it). I am keeping them in what it shows, I have also used some cheap mixed grades I got a while back in a tank setup like my neos and tigers, had 5 females and 5 males. I got hardly any breeding at all, they berried 2 times and out of them I got 2 baby shrimp to survive, plus some of the shrimp turned a greenish hue on the black shell. I could only think it was from stress due to the PH, as everything checked out and the juvi sub adult BTOE where fine. I then moved them to my normal tb tank on a breeder box and berried no problem and tons of babies. With all but 1 survived

I think we might be jumping ahead of the curve saying they can have 7.4+ for TBS right now and even higher grade crs/cbs.... I agree the line is creeping up, but I do not think their genes are there yet..... I mean look how long it has taken to make BTOE semi stable in healthy.... Not many people can keep these alive let alone breed, same with Red tigers. I say stay inside the recommended conditions unless you like playing roulette with shrimp.


I am just saying this so people who are venturing out dont spend there money to kill shrimp. Remember these post are viewed by all and as I agree PH is not the factor it once was, it is still a huge part and probably one of the most important.
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:24 PM   #38
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Quote:
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I would love a detailed explanation on this. I know what pH is and what it does but it will help me a great deal to understand how it affects shrimp.
I have a PhD in Zoology, but I don't have a clue what low pH does to shrimp, and why some shrimp need higher pH than others. I doubt anyone on this forum who isn't a crustacean biologist knows this. You don't need to know the physiological mechanism to appreciate that the vast majority of strains of Caridina cantonensis shrimp are much more likely to survive and breed at a pH of 7 or lower. We know this from our own experience, and the fact that the vast majority of breeders in the world have more success breeding at pH 7 or lower.

Yes, there are some strains that have been developed (most of them in the EU) that will breed well in more alkaline conditions. However, unless you know for sure that your shrimp are from one of these pH 7+ strains, or unless you want to create a selection program to create one of these strains yourself (which is difficult, even for a pro), you should probably stick with the parameters that most people use, and focus on breeding for coloration/patterns rather than survival. It's much more fun---believe me!
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:28 PM   #39
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Well I started in TB about 4 months ago, and I am have great success with them and breeding and survival(Minus dragon fly nymphs and tank tear downs because of it).
Wow. I didn't realize you have been only breeding TBs for 4 months. Didn't you say you have nearly 100 of them?
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:18 PM   #40
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I agree with everything above, keeping them in ideal conditions is the best for breeding, and easy maintenance, beginners, etc.

Some rules have to be broken or things tried outside that norm though to learn more. Going back on sites like shrimpnow, anyone that said they had a neo/card cross a few years ago was laughed and TOLD it's not possible and their crs HAD to have tiger genes in it or they have other shrimp they don't know about. Now we have confirmed crosses on here with respected breeders like Liam.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:19 PM   #41
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Yes I probably do have around a 100 now maybe a little more. I have bouht about 50 and as i counted at lunch when i added 5 more pandas, I have about 45-50 babies I saved from the death trap drangonfly nymph tank. Probably lost close to another 75 in there due to it and 8 adults.... I probably had close to 100-140 baby TB going. had 9 females in the last 2 months give birth.... I had about 50 tb and 40 mishclings in one tank. I had 15 berried mischlings at one point
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:40 PM   #42
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Yes I probably do have around a 100 now maybe a little more. I have bouht about 50 and as i counted at lunch when i added 5 more pandas, I have about 45-50 babies I saved from the death trap drangonfly nymph tank. Probably lost close to another 75 in there due to it and 8 adults.... I probably had close to 100-140 baby TB going. had 9 females in the last 2 months give birth.... I had about 50 tb and 40 mishclings in one tank. I had 15 berried mischlings at one point
Do you have any pics? Mind to share?
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:08 PM   #43
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My photo skills suck but I have some pcs on my past journal post and I am getting a nice camera soon
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:23 PM   #44
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So to sum up the OP's question and get past the 2 page hijack we got into, using kitty litter plus diy c02 probably isn't the best for CRS and ADA soil will help dramatically in keeping your ph/kh in check, use RO and remineralize with a shrimp mineral and you should be good. It's the easiest way to start with CRS. CO2 can be detrimental unless you know what you're doing with shrimp and ferts and hi-tech tanks. The soil does better for work you. Maybe even setup a small second tank, 10-20gal with a bag of ada, small filter and sponge filter, some moss or basic plants.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:12 AM   #45
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Aquasoil + RO is magic for shrimps.
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