|02-13-2013, 07:14 PM||#1|
Planted Tank Obsessed
Help-Nitrates and I cant get rid of them
Its actually for a friend... he set up a ada tank about 10 gallons a monthago. So he set it up with the ada soild i think amazonia or something like that. I never used this type of soil but he told me it was live and had bacteria in it? I said ok so after a couple of week we started him off with 4 crs from my stock. He also bought some mini crabs.... The set up is simple some plants and rocks with amazonia soil and another rocky subtstrate. He did some water changes but then read with that soil you need to do large water changes right away which he didnt.. But since we got him some testers he realized his nitrites were consistantly high I had him doing water changes but it hasnt not helped. he has been doing 2-3 allon changes daily. I dont know what to tell him. Are to many water changes going to kill the shrimp? What is causing the repeated spikes? After water changes its still .8 Today it was almost 2 pre water change.
|02-13-2013, 07:36 PM||#2|
Is it the nitrates that are high or the nitrites? In your post you refered to nitrites. I will assume its the nitrites to which you speak, if so then the tank hasn't finished cycling, and the large (30%) daily water changes are stalling the cycle. Cut back to weekly 10% water changes and wait until you get 0 nitrites and your nitrates start to climb. Then your tank will be cycled. I have not used the ADA soil but from what I understand it can leach ammonia at set-up, hence the large water changes to begin with. However in your friends case he should be patient and let the bacteria colony establish. Raising water temps into the low 80's can help speed the process up. Hope this helps some.
Eheim Pimp #533
|02-13-2013, 07:54 PM||#3|
Planted Tank Guru
ADA soil can take 4-10 weeks to leech all the ammonia out of it as it comes loaded will usually leech about 4ppm of ammonia during that course of time. What seems to be happening is the soil is still leeching, which is going to create nitrites/nitrates at high levels because the source of ammonia is still there. Really, I would take the shrimp out until all the levels have settled. I don't usually add shrimp to an active substrate tank for 2-3 months as it takes that long to get everything in balance.
20g platy, , 2 x 10g shrimp, 3 x 20g shrimp, 7.5g shrimp and 1 great dane/mastiff puppy.
Sump Pimp #2
My Tanks and my shrimps
|02-13-2013, 08:05 PM||#4|
What kind of water are you using for water change? For instance my tap water has 20 nitrates even with prime added.
|02-14-2013, 01:04 AM||#5|
Planted Tank Guru
I also would remove the livestock and test the water.
If the soil is still producing ammonia, then you can use it as a source of ammonia and do the fishless cycle.
If the soil is no longer producing ammonia, then your friend might have to add some to keep the bacteria going.
Read through the fishless cycle. When you cycle a tank you are growing 2 different populations of bacteria, and this takes time. The first population removes ammonia, and turns it into nitrite. The second group (Nitrospira sp) remove nitrite and turn it into nitrate.
An aquarium that is showing low or no ammonia, but rising nitrite and nitrate is half-way through the cycle: The first population of bacteria have been growing long enough to remove the ammonia produced by the soil, and are happily producing nitrite. Nitrospira are slower growing than the ammonia removing group, so the nitrite seems to linger longer, but eventually will start going down.
Since ADA products seem to produce lots of ammonia for about a month, then less and less, your friend probably should add ammonia to keep the first group of bacteria going until the second group has grown larger.
Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.
Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details.
Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium.
The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks.
1) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water.
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine.
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine.
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated.
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful.
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation.
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort.
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required.
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different.
1a) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else.
At the time this was written the right species could be found in:
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others.
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast.
2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though.
3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm.
4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm.
5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm.
6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours.
7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high!
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.
B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off.
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better.
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Topical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen.
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well.
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations.
C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.